Islam doesn't condone terror

[razeontherock]

Ok, in an effort to understand each other and so to put away fear and mis-understanding, I would like this thread to focus on teachings of Islam, esp those things that have come to the forefront in our "post 9/11 world."

I do appreciate those practicing Muslims who have posted (some of) their texts that uphold peace, and I also appreciate that you have longer texts to contend with than Christians do. Still, there are many verses that have been raised on CF that I haven't seen addressed squarely. Personally, I would hope that these "hard passages" simply need a greater understanding to be taken as intended.

Hopefully we can contain this to this one thread, instead of it spilling all over the place, which many posters have commented gets annoying. And hopefully we'll hear what one another has to say

Who's first with the burning questions?

 

[SlaveOfGod]

All Praise be to Allah

Islam does not condone terror nor oppression. Our scholars have mentioned this in the numerous rulings they have given and one of these rulings can be read below which was issued by Abdul-Azeez Aal ash-Shaikh from Saudi Arabia. This was made following the horrible events of September 11 and I hope this provides some clarification on the Islamic stance towards terror


"""Due to abundant questions and enquiries that have been brought to us concerning what has happened in the United States of America a few days ago, and concerning the Sharee'ah position towards it, and wehther the religion of Islam affirms the likes of these actions or not, I say, seeking aid and assistance from Allah, the Unique, the Overpowerer, that Allah, free is He from all imperfection, has bestowed upon us the favour of this Islamic religion and has made it a complete legislation, a perfect and all-inclusive one which is beneficial for all times, and places and all situations, for all individuals and groups of individuals. It invites towards rectification and uprightness and justice and goodness, and also the removal of Shirk (paganism, associationism, ascribing false partners with Allah), and evil, oppression, injustice and deceit.

And it is from the greatest of favours of Allah upon us, we the Muslims, that He has guided us to this religion, and has made us its followers and helpers. Hence, a Muslim is cultivated by the legislation of Allah, a follower of the Sunnah (the way) of the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam), and one who remains upright and steadfast upon this religion - he is the one who will be the saved Muslim in this life and the Hereafter.

As for what has happened in the United States of America of very dangerous occurrences, on account of which thousands of souls have passed away, on account of actions that the Islamic Sharee'ah (legislation) does not sanction, and which are not from this religion, and these actions do not agree with the spirit and foundations of the legislation from numerous angles:

The first: Verily, Allah, free is He from all imperfections, has commanded justice, and is based upon justice that the Heavens and the Earth stand (i.e. operate, exist), and it is on account of this justice that the Messengers were sent and the Books were revealed. Allah the free from all imperfections, said (translates as),

"Verily, Allah commands with justice and benevolence, and the giving of near relatives (in charity) and He forbids from obscene and evil deeds, and oppression. He cautions you, that perchance you may remember."​

And He also says (translates as),

"We have indeed sent Messengers with clear proofs and we have revealed with them, the Book and the Balance, so that the people may abide by justice".​

And Allah has judged and decreed that one soul cannot bear the burden of another soul, this due to the perfection of Allah’s justice, free is he from imperfection. He said (translates as),

"And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another".​

Indeed, Allah, free is He from all imperfections has forbidden oppression on His own self, and He has also declared it forbidden for his servants, as he has said in the Hadeeth Qudsee:

"O My servants, indeed I have forbidden oppression upon Myself and I have also made it forbidden amongst yourselves, hence do not oppress each other".​

And this is general for all of the servants of Allah, both the Muslims amongst them and the Non-Muslim, and it is not permissible for any one of them to be unjust to another, and nor for him to oppress him, even if it is in the presence of hate and dislike.

Allah, free is He from all imperfections says (translates as),

"O you who believe. Be of those who stand up to Allah, as witnesses of justice. And let not the hatred of a people make you swerve away from justice towards them. Verily, be just and that is closer to piety."​

Hence, even hatred and dislike do not permit the commission of injustice and oppression, from a legislative point of view.

Based upon what has preceded, it is obligatory for all of us to know - both states and societies, Muslims and Non-Muslims, a number of important matters:

1. That these matters that have taken place in the United States and whatever else is of their nature of plane hijackings and taking people hostage or killing innocent people, without a just cause, this is nothing but a manifestation of injustice, oppression and tyranny, which the Islamic Sharee'ah does not sanction or accept, rather it is expressly forbidden and it is amongst the greatest of sins.

2. That the Muslim who learns the details of his religion, and who acts upon the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) does not allow himself to fall into the likes of these actions, due to what they contain of exposing oneself to the wrath of Allah, and then what results from them of harms and corruption (upon the earth).

3. It is obligatory upon the Scholars of the Muslim Ummah that they explain the truth concerning the likes of these affairs (i.e. terrorist attacks) and that they make clear to the world at large that the Sharee'ah of Allah and the religion of Islam does not sanction these types of actions, ever.

4. It is upon the media outlets and whoever is behind them, from amongst those who make accusations against the Muslims and who strive to revile this noble and upright religion, and describe it with that which it is free from, all in order to kindle tribulation and to harm the reputation of Islam and the Muslims and to separate the hearts and constrict the chests - it is obligatory upon them to restrain from this misguidance and to realise that every sane and just person knows of the details of Islam, and knows that it is not possible for him to describe it with these descriptions, and that he cannot make these types of accusations against it, this is because on account of the passing of history, the nations have not known the followers of this religion, and its adherents except to be those who fulfil their rights (due to others) and their absence of injustice and oppression.

And what has preceded is in explanation of the truth and to remove any confusion, and I ask Allah that he inspires us with that which contains our guidance, that he guides us to the ways of Islam, and that He strengthens His religion and makes high His word, indeed He is the Most Kind, the Most Generous, and prayers and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad, and upon his family and all his companions"""


'Abdul-Azeez bin Abdullaa bin Muhammad Aal ash-Shaikh

The Grand Mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
President of the Committee of Major Scholars and the Centre for Knowledge Based Research and Verdicts

 

[Tariki]

The words of the Muslim Ziauddin Sardar...

"Creating the Kingdom of God on earth, as it is in heaven, is the basic message of Islam. This is the true meaning of Jihad................Acts of terror are not Jihad. They violate the explicit word of God, Prophet Muhammad and the reasoned concensus of all believers. The greatest jihad is the war on injustice in one's own soul, the injustice that can conceive of terror tactics and lose all restraints and respect for the sanctity of a human life. Jihad is the reasoned struggle of each individual to work within the bounds of moral action, to extend the protection of justice equitably to every human being, irrespective of colour, creed or place of origin. Jihad is the obligation to make peace a lived reality for all human beings.................The faith I hold, the faith of Muslims, the justice we seek, is an obligation to promote and make real in each life freedom from tyranny, neglect, need, dearth and suffering. The justice we yearn for is the life blood of a humane society with dignity and freedom for all. It cannot be found by blasting innocents apart in an inferno of twisted metal and concrete. When the innocent are murdered, we all go into the dark with them. When the innocent suffer, their suffering is our own."

As published in the "Observer", an English newspaper, soon after 9/11


To a certain extent my own threads were related to all this, "Interpreting the Qu'ran" and "Is there grace in Islam?"

In a very real sense, "Islam" does nothing, there are just individual Muslims who interpret and live their lives accordingly.

 

[BruceDLimber]

And I will add that not only does the Qur'an itself command:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion!" (2:256),

but we Baha'is love, respect, and fully accept Islam as one of the legitimate, God-sent religions! --this REGARDLESS of the way a minority of Muslims (and one Muslim country in particular) treat us!

So as always, let love, unity, peace, and concord prevail!

Best!

Bruce

 

[MattRose]

I just drew a picture of Muhammad. Must I be punished in some way?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Here is what I don't understand when people claim Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and justice:

1) Peace: The Prophet himself, the one who received this revelation from God, raised an army and conquered, by acts of war, other cities. Despite the fact that there were "minimal casualties" during the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet, himself, still raised a large army bent on conquering the surrounding areas. Muhammed may have even killed people by his own hand perhaps during the conquest of the Banu Qurayza tribe. How can one be peaceful if he raises an army and conquers lands by war?

2) Tolerance: The Prophet, himself, had "enemies" which he set out to conquer such as the tribes of Hawazin. How can one be tolerant of others if he has enemies which he tries to conquer?

3) Justice: Justice is too much in the eye of the beholder. Because the terrorists of 9/11 likely thought that they were upholding justice by rising up to attack their oppressors (the West). So were they upholding God's justice by their actions? Because did not the Prophet himself uphold God's justice by his actions? And if the Prophet's justice involved war and conquest and murder of innocents (a by-product of war and conquest), then could not the "terrorists" actions be upright and just in the eyes of God? As a follower of the Prophet, how do you reconcile that the "terrorists" may actually be the "heroes" in the eyes of God, according to Muhammed?

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone but my own research has lead me to conclude that certain facts about the Prophet's life seem to contradict the messages now being purported to exemplify the religion which he began.

You'll also notice I did not quote the Quran in any way. This is not about the holy book, it is about Muhammed's life and actions as compared with the standard morality which moderate Muslims would say is the morality of God. And too often I see, in objective biographies or histories of the Prophet's life, that he himself did not live up to the standard of morality that moderate Muslims today would say is the morality of God.

Islam has many good points and many good messages but I think these questions I've posed about the Prophet himself need to be explained or reconciled. And if anything I've said in this post is not factual, please let me know.

 

[Meepy]

I have always wondered why the verses during the Mecca period are so much more 'softer' and forgiving of christians and jews than the Medina period(Verse of the Sword too) of the Quran. Like for instance, I don't understand this, which seems to contradict

Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. Sura 2:62

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. - Sura 5:72

or

(4:78)
".... If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah....."* (4:79)


"Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself"

 

[Rationalt]

And I will add that not only does the Qur'an itself command:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion!" (2:256),

Aren't we there before?.The Bahai's in this forum have a habit of make some strong declarations and disappear.

 

[Meepy]

I just drew a picture of Muhammad. Must I be punished in some way?

yes


*gets the belt* ( Y )

 

[Rationalt]

I have always wondered why the verses during the Mecca period are so much more 'softer' and forgiving of christians and jews than the Medina period(Verse of the Sword too) of the Quran. Like for instance, I don't understand this, which seems to contradict

Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. Sura 2:62

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. - Sura 5:72

or

(4:78)
".... If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah....."* (4:79)


"Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself"

That is pure tactical.Muhammad when he had few followers didn't bring War/murder verses.Subsequently in Medina when his followers swelled coinciding with Successful looting of Merchant caravans the gloves were Off.

 

[JJWhite]

I have always wondered why the verses during the Mecca period are so much more 'softer' and forgiving of christians and jews than the Medina period(Verse of the Sword too) of the Quran. Like for instance, I don't understand this, which seems to contradict

Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. Sura 2:62

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. - Sura 5:72

or

(4:78)
".... If some good befalls them, they say "This is from Allah". But if evil, they say "This is from thee" (O prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah....."* (4:79)


"Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. But whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself"

Would you like to add those to the contradictions in the Qur'aan thread, Meepy? Perhaps, we can address them there.

 

[IbrahimFahim]

That is pure tactical.Muhammad when he had few followers didn't bring War/murder verses.Subsequently in Medina when his followers swelled coinciding with Successful looting of Merchant caravans the gloves were Off.

This is a gross misrepresentation of history.

 

[razeontherock]

Tabari IX:69 "Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us."
Tabari VIII:141 "The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'"
Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive."
Ishaq:489 "Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing."
Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."
Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."
Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'"
Ishaq:368 "Ka'b's body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet."
Tabari VII:97
Ishaq:368 "We carried Ka'b's head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah's enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'"
Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'"
Ishaq:369 "Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, 'Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, 'By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, 'Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!' And he accepted Islam."
Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."

 

[JJWhite]

Tabari IX:69 "Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us."
Tabari VIII:141 "The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'"
Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive."
Ishaq:489 "Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing."
Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."
Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."
Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'"
Ishaq:368 "Ka'b's body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad's order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet."
Tabari VII:97
Ishaq:368 "We carried Ka'b's head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah's enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause. Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.'"
Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'"
Ishaq:369 "Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, 'Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, 'By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, 'Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!' And he accepted Islam."
Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."

I'll get back with you, Ray... but, step one would be to remove everything that has Ishaq or Tabari in front of it. We need to discuss the texts of established authenticity, such as the verses found in the Qur'aan and the narrations of the statements, actions and approvals of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that are classified as authentic. From your list there, anything that has the word Qur'an in front of it or Bukhari in front of it is something I recognize as an authentic source of my religion and would have to examine.

 

[razeontherock]

You can probably recognize I copy pasted this, but from another poster, not some website. And I realize that going into all the details of how to tell what is and isn't authentic is WAY beyond the scope of this website! Others that are more knowledgeable than I may have questions or comments about that aspect of it though ...

 

[I die daily]

Here's a prime one...
Tells to kill those against Islam:
>"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter" (Quran 5:33)
Slay non-Muslims: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful" (Quran 9:5).

 

[PHenry42]

Ok, in an effort to understand each other and so to put away fear and mis-understanding, I would like this thread to focus on teachings of Islam, esp those things that have come to the forefront in our "post 9/11 world."

I do appreciate those practicing Muslims who have posted (some of) their texts that uphold peace, and I also appreciate that you have longer texts to contend with than Christians do. Still, there are many verses that have been raised on CF that I haven't seen addressed squarely. Personally, I would hope that these "hard passages" simply need a greater understanding to be taken as intended.

Hopefully we can contain this to this one thread, instead of it spilling all over the place, which many posters have commented gets annoying. And hopefully we'll hear what one another has to say

Who's first with the burning questions?

Pick me! I'm not afraid of getting burnt! I usually wouldn't bother, but you (and leftrightleftrightleft) seem genuinely interested in understanding, contrary to most here who just spam quotes without knowing or even caring. You know who you are, and I'm not going to bother engaging you.

Where would you like to start?

 

[PHenry42]

Here is what I don't understand when people claim Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and justice:

1) Peace: The Prophet himself, the one who received this revelation from God, raised an army and conquered, by acts of war, other cities. Despite the fact that there were "minimal casualties" during the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet, himself, still raised a large army bent on conquering the surrounding areas. Muhammed may have even killed people by his own hand perhaps during the conquest of the Banu Qurayza tribe. How can one be peaceful if he raises an army and conquers lands by war?

Well, he wasn't only peaceful. Islam is not only a religion of peace, but of war too . We have commandments, rules and regulations for both. There is, as they say, a time and a place for everything under heaven. Peace is preferable, but in some circumstances, war is mandated on us.

Did you know that Muhammed Ali refused to serve in Vietnam because the war could not be considered a just war by Islamic standards?

2) Tolerance: The Prophet, himself, had "enemies" which he set out to conquer such as the tribes of Hawazin. How can one be tolerant of others if he has enemies which he tries to conquer?

I don't see what the one has to do with the other. Tolerance means acceptance (or overlooking) of differences. Muhammed didn't go conquering tribes because of differences, but as a counter to Pagan Arabs banding together to wipe out the Islamic community.

3) Justice: Justice is too much in the eye of the beholder. Because the terrorists of 9/11 likely thought that they were upholding justice by rising up to attack their oppressors (the West). So were they upholding God's justice by their actions? Because did not the Prophet himself uphold God's justice by his actions? And if the Prophet's justice involved war and conquest and murder of innocents (a by-product of war and conquest), then could not the "terrorists" actions be upright and just in the eyes of God? As a follower of the Prophet, how do you reconcile that the "terrorists" may actually be the "heroes" in the eyes of God, according to Muhammed?

To not go unnecessarily into contemporary politics, I'll just say that even if we postulate that their cause is just (and it might be), their actions can still be wrong if they conduct their fight in a wrongful way, such as by direct targeting of innocent civilians. I'm not aware of Muhammed having ever done that.

You'll also notice I did not quote the Quran in any way. This is not about the holy book, it is about Muhammed's life and actions as compared with the standard morality which moderate Muslims would say is the morality of God. And too often I see, in objective biographies or histories of the Prophet's life, that he himself did not live up to the standard of morality that moderate Muslims today would say is the morality of God.

What are these "objective biographies"? Ones written by secular historians? I wouldn't know what they actually say about him, as I haven't read any such secular biography. In what, exactly, do you think he contradicted the morality he himself preached?

 

[Meepy]

Would you like to add those to the contradictions in the Qur'aan thread, Meepy? Perhaps, we can address them there.

ok, isn't the thread really long and drawn out?

I had hear once that the later verses of the Quran nullify the earlier ones if they seem contradictory.

 

[JJWhite]

To not go unnecessarily into contemporary politics, I'll just say that even if we postulate that their cause is just (and it might be), their actions can still be wrong if they conduct their fight in a wrongful way, such as by direct targeting of innocent civilians. I'm not aware of Muhammed having ever done that.

Additionally...

- During Muhammad's lifetime, war was not declared before the presence of an Islaamic State. I understand this to show that vigilantism is not permitted and that a war may only be launched by a nation.

- The Madinan community qualified as a political nation when its people accepted Muhammad as their leader and pledged allegiance to him. That's how it worked there and then, to my knowledge. In today's world, what makes something qualify as a 'nation'?