Isaiah 7:14 Confusion

[Maverick1972]

Okay, Isaiah 7:14. I was writing a paper and ran across something that raised an eyebrow.

KJV - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

RSV - Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

Hebrew -
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אֹות הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמֹו עִמָּנוּ אֵֽל׃


Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, an almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu'el.

Almah - translates to mean 'Young Woman' in Hebrew.

This would appear to conflict with Matthew 1:23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Hebrew scholars claim Almah means 'Young Woman' and according to the Torah and Jewish Study Bible they write this next to Isaiah 7:14.

14. Young Woman (Heb 'Almah'). The Septuagint translates as "Virgin", leading ancient and medieval Christians to connect this verse with the New Testament figure of Mary. All modern scholars, however, agree that the Heb merely denotes a young woman of marriageable age, whether married or unmarried, whether a virgin or not.

So what is going on here? Can someone shed some light on this for me?

 

[The Templar]

There is no conflict as "a young woman" in those days was a virgin.

 

[dies-l]

As an assignment in her hermeneutics class (she is currently in her 2nd year of seminary), my wife had to do a word study on the word "almah" in this passage. I remember discussing this with her, because I have always though that this was an interesting topic. There is a fair amount of debate about the proper translation of the word. Part of the problem is that the word "almah" is not all that common in Hebrew Scriptures. The Hebrew word "betulah" is the more common word that would normally be translated as "virgin". However, from what my wife explained to me, each specific use of the word "almah" refers to a woman is not married. This leads many scholars to believe that the word at least implies virginity.

For the purpose of the assignment, my wife concluded that "virgin" is a proper way to translate the word, but based on the above explanation, any good translation of the Bible should indicate that either translation is feasible. I tend to prefer the way it is translated in the RSV/NRSV, as this seems less presumptuous to me (we know that, at a minimum, it refers to a young woman). But, tradition has always understood the implication of virginity. As such, this should be made clear, at least in footnote.

 

[MinisterTony]

...Hebrew scholars claim Almah means 'Young Woman' and according to the Torah and Jewish Study Bible they write this next to Isaiah 7:14.

....

1. What Scholars? Names?

2. Did you know that not all Scholars agree with even themselves?

 

[dies-l]

1. What Scholars? Names?

2. Did you know that not all Scholars agree with even themselves?

It's important to keep in mind that, for any topic about which there is debate, you will find scholars who will make convincing arguments on both sides of the debate. If not, then there would be nothing to debate about. It is important, however, in interpreting Scripture that we do not simply defer to "the scholars" or even specifically those scholars that we typically agree with. Instead, the first step in answering a question like the one posed in the OP is to do legwork for yourself, without the help of commentaries and other opinion pieces. After doing the legwork of exploring the specific meanings and usages of a given phrase, one is better equipped to intelligently consider the perspectives of various "scholars" and commentators.

 

[MinisterTony]

It's important to keep in mind that, for any topic about which there is debate, you will find scholars who will make convincing arguments on both sides of the debate....

And the point is that how can you know with total certainty, which Scholar is right? Or maybe they are both wrong.

Nobody has perfect understanding and interpretation of entire Scripture, so you cannot know for sure who or what is right on certain topics.

 

[1watchman]

Gentiles are not Hebrews, so the language is different. The O.T. is mostly Hebrew and the N. T. is Greek. Mary was a virgin, to be sure, though a young woman.

- 1 Watchman

 

[dies-l]

And the point is that how can you know with total certainty, which Scholar is right? Or maybe they are both wrong.

Nobody has perfect understanding and interpretation of entire Scripture, so you cannot know for sure who or what is right on certain topics.

That is essentially why it is good to some hermeneteutical work on our own before consulting the "scholars". This way we can have some basis to judge the soundness of their scholarship. It sounds like we generally agree on this.

 

[Maverick1972]

Very interesting responses, I tend to think that this is just a problem with translation. I know that in Hebrew you're dealing with 22 consanants and there are so many variations and interpretations with the words. I was speaking with someone earlier who explained that 'Almah' is likely virgin but difficult to explain in English. A young woman called 'Squirt' or 'Kiddo' for example would likely be regarded as a Virgin but of course it's possible that she is not.

1. What Scholars? Names?

2. Did you know that not all Scholars agree with even themselves?

The source is the Jewish Study Bible put out by the Jewish Publication Society. There were 40 scholars, 3 editors and many Rabbis. If you check out a few websites I'm sure it will source the names. I was too lazy to type them all out. lol

 

[dies-l]

Very interesting responses, I tend to think that this is just a problem with translation. I know that in Hebrew you're dealing with 22 consanants and there are so many variations and interpretations with the words. I was speaking with someone earlier who explained that 'Almah' is likely virgin but difficult to explain in English. A young woman called 'Squirt' or 'Kiddo' for example would likely be regarded as a Virgin but of course it's possible that she is not.





The source is the Jewish Study Bible put out by the Jewish Publication Society. There were 40 scholars, 3 editors and many Rabbis. If you check out a few websites I'm sure it will source the names. I was too lazy to type them all out. lol

It sounds like you are on the right track. My opinion is that "young woman" is probably the most technically accurate, but given the cultural context, "virgin" is probably strongly implied by this. Keep in mind that even in the English language, the word "virgin", especially in its more archaic usage, does not necessarily imply chastity.

 

[MinisterTony]

That is essentially why it is good to some hermeneteutical work on our own before consulting the "scholars". This way we can have some basis to judge the soundness of their scholarship. It sounds like we generally agree on this.

While exegesis draws out the meaning from the text, eisegesis occurs when a reader reads his/her interpretation into the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.

 

[Maverick1972]

Oh now this is interesting. In the Greek Septuagint from 200 BC. For almah in Isaiah 7:14, the Jewish translators used the specific Greek word for virgin (par-thay-nos). This was translated by the Sages who were extremely careful some 200 years before Christ.

Therefore, before any controversy about Jesus being born of a virgin came into Jewish and Christian understanding, the authoritative Jewish version of the Greek Old Testament declared that the virgin would conceive and bear a son, and that he would be God with us.

If this is true and there appears to be good evidence to suggest that it is. It raises an even more interesting question. Why would a reputable and distinguished organization such as the 'Jewish Publication Society' or the 'NRSV Publishers' get it wrong or write it wrong?

 

[dies-l]

Oh now this is interesting. In the Greek Septuagint from 200 BC. For almah in Isaiah 7:14, the Jewish translators used the specific Greek word for virgin (par-thay-nos). This was translated by the Sages who were extremely careful some 200 years before Christ.

Therefore, before any controversy about Jesus being born of a virgin came into Jewish and Christian understanding, the authoritative Jewish version of the Greek Old Testament declared that the virgin would conceive and bear a son, and that he would be God with us.

Interesting

If this is true and there appears to be good evidence to suggest that it is. It raises an even more interesting question. Why would a reputable and distinguished organization such as the 'Jewish Publication Society' or the 'NRSV Publishers' get it wrong or write it wrong?

I don't think that they got it wrong, as it is a legitimate controversy, and I think that the "young woman" is still technically more accurate. And the NRSV is well known for being very careful not to bring Christian theological assumptions into their translation of the OT. I also don't doubt that there is a certain ring of truth to the traditional translation "virgin", as this likely would have been culturally implied. Also, bear in mind that "virgin" as it is used in modern English to refer to a chaste person is not the same as it was in Middle English, in which it simply referred to a young woman.

The important thing to bear in mind about Bible translations is that each has its bias. I like the RSV/NRSV, but like all translations, they have biases. If you are going to get into deep study and analysis of the Bible, you really should use a minimum of three translations each with different biases to clue you in to where the translation difficulties lie. Personally, I use the RSV, NIV, and NJB as my main three. I sometimes also use the NRSV, ESV, and NASB to supplement these.

 

[miamited]

Hi guys,

This particular passage is fairly easy to decipher. Why? Well, it is one of the few passages that are directly quoted in the New Testament. Matthew wrote to us that the 'virgin will be with child'. Directly quoting what, he believed, Isaiah intended.

One thing that I am absolutely completely convinced of, is that the Scriptures are inspired. The very words written in the original manuscripts were chosen carefully by the Holy Spirit. In other words, it is not my belief that the Holy Spirit 'said' to the original authors, "Ok, now write something about this subject or that event." No, my conviction is that the very words written were inspired to be written. Therefore, when I check what Matthew believed, who was a Jew and would have used a word that Jews in that day would have understood, he wrote, 'parthenos'.

Guess what? Parthenos is even more confusing. It can not only mean a 'virgin', a 'marriageable woman', but can also refer to a man who has never had intercourse with a woman. However, context would surely indicate that this passage is referring to a woman. As it relates to a woman, then it can only mean a 'virgin' or 'marriageabe' woman.

So, when we look at Judaism, what is meant by a 'marriageable' woman? I believe that we can fairly well prove that Judaism required a woman to be a virgin to be considered marriageable in her first marriage. There is evidence that any woman who could not, on her marriage night, 'prove' by the issuance of blood during sexual relations, that she was not a virgin, could come under severe condemnation even to the point of stoning and often causing the marriage vows to be declared null.

Based on this evidence alone, I find myself, easily able to translate the word 'parthenos' whether intended as 'virgin' or 'marriageable' woman by the original author, to certainly mean virginal as regards any sexual relations.

Furthermore, as one final nail in this case. We have Mary's own testimony when speaking with the angel as recorded by Luke. She declares herself to be virginal and uses a completely different group of words which literally would mean in this context, "I have never had sex with a man."

epei aner ou ginosko

 

[miamited]

Sorry, I hit enter before I finished.
epei aner ou ginosko
translated: 'because or since, regarding sex, known a man.

The word 'ginosko', which is the last word in the phrase transliterated into english, was, at the time of Luke's writting, an idiom, well used in the Jewish community when speaking Greeek, that means: sexual intercourse between a man and a woman.

I find that all of this leads me to believe that the translators have translated the word here, and because of the direct referral to the passage in Isaiah, as virgin and rightly so.

God bless you all.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[The Templar]

A quick question on Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek,
are there words to describe a woman who is young but not a virgin?

This whole debate of "the proper interpretation" is as a result of our fallen moral standards today.
"Young Women" of the Bible era were pure, and kept themselves pure until marriage.

Sad that Godly morals are so rare today.

 

[MinisterTony]

Where does the Bible say that Mary had sexual intercourse before conceiving Jesus Christ?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Okay, Isaiah 7:14. I was writing a paper and ran across something that raised an eyebrow.

KJV - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

RSV - Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

Hebrew -
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אֹות הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמֹו עִמָּנוּ אֵֽל׃


Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, an almah shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu'el.

Almah - translates to mean 'Young Woman' in Hebrew.

This would appear to conflict with Matthew 1:23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Hebrew scholars claim Almah means 'Young Woman' and according to the Torah and Jewish Study Bible they write this next to Isaiah 7:14.

14. Young Woman (Heb 'Almah'). The Septuagint translates as "Virgin", leading ancient and medieval Christians to connect this verse with the New Testament figure of Mary. All modern scholars, however, agree that the Heb merely denotes a young woman of marriageable age, whether married or unmarried, whether a virgin or not.

So what is going on here? Can someone shed some light on this for me?

Even though it may more correctly be young woman, look at the situation. Would God give a sign that a young woman of a marriageable age would have a child? That could mean God could be giving a sign everyday. It must be a virgin and therefore they saw the virgin would have been the more appropriate translation in this case. Notice now the New Testament.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

The greek for virgin?

parthenos
par-then'-os
Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.

So the New Testament verifies that indeed it was a virgin.

 

[dies-l]

Even though it may more correctly be young woman, look at the situation. Would God give a sign that a young woman of a marriageable age would have a child? That could mean God could be giving a sign everyday. It must be a virgin and therefore they saw the virgin would have been the more appropriate translation in this case. Notice now the New Testament.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

The greek for virgin?

parthenos
par-then'-os
Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter: - virgin.

So the New Testament verifies that indeed it was a virgin.

I agree with this interpretation, but the point of a good Bible translation is to avoid interpretation as much as possible. Exegesis is better left to the reader than to the translator. A good translation should attempt to provide the information necessary to allow it to begin. So, even though one should reasonably conclude that the woman in the prophesy was a virgin, I prefer a translation that translates the Hebrew word as literally as possible, leaving any important connotations for a footnote.

 

[dies-l]

Where does the Bible say that Mary had sexual intercourse before conceiving Jesus Christ?

Did anyone say or even imply this?