Isaiah 14:3-22

[Abiel]

I had always taken for granted that the middle section of this passage refered to the fall of the devil. We studied the other night, using a variety of translations, and came away less sure. Further study around the subject has shown me that opinion is divided.
Our conclusion was- unless the translation you are looking at says 'lucifer' there would be no reason to assume a connection. The CEV has 'You, the bright morning star have fallen from heaven'.
To add to our confusion, there is a song in the Salvation Army Song Book with this chorus:
'He's the lily of the valley, the bright and morning star, He's the fairest of ten thousand to my soul' (I've found a friend in Jesus- Charles Fry).

Any clarifying thoughts?

 

[Edial]

I had always taken for granted that the middle section of this passage refered to the fall of the devil. We studied the other night, using a variety of translations, and came away less sure. Further study around the subject has shown me that opinion is divided.
Our conclusion was- unless the translation you are looking at says 'lucifer' there would be no reason to assume a connection. The CEV has 'You, the bright morning star have fallen from heaven'.
To add to our confusion, there is a song in the Salvation Army Song Book with this chorus:
'He's the lily of the valley, the bright and morning star, He's the fairest of ten thousand to my soul' (I've found a friend in Jesus- Charles Fry).

Any clarifying thoughts?

Sometime ago I have done a research on the morning star while preparing a bible lesson on the Revelation.

Throughout the 7 churches the overcomers received stuff like a crown of life, hidden manna, white stone, authority over the nations, morning star, white clothing, unblottable name, acknowledgement in front of the Father. Some became pillars in the temple and had the names of God, Christ and the new Jerusalem written on them and some sat with Christ on the throne.

All these appear to be rewards of some sort.

The morning star in 2:28 was one of the rewards that the overcomers received.

REV 2:28 I will also give him the morning star.

It was my impression that the recipient of that specific reward (the morning star) would also be called by the similar title.

In this verse we also have the Christ who is called the Morning Star -
REV 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

And here we also have believers having the morning star -
2PE 1:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

So, in order to harmonize these verses here is my summary:

Originally the devil had the morning star and was called one, then it was taken away from him after his rebellion and given to the Christ. And finally Christ gave it to us.

I think that this interpretation of the Isa 14:12 would be more harmonious with the texts.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Abiel and Edial,

Greetings. I believe that Isaiah 14 is speaking in figurative language of the King of Babylon.
Isaiah 14:4-17 (KJV): "4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Lusifer is "morning star" and represents the king as a political luminary. Like the morning star he arises in the morning, reaches his zenith, and then descends. With the king of Babylon it is a parable of God raising him up at first, then of his pride and demise.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Abiel]

So a bit like God saying through the prophet- 'I remember when lucifer fell, and you are gonna fall just as badly'?

 

[Edial]

Howdy Abiel and Edial,

Greetings. I believe that Isaiah 14 is speaking in figurative language of the King of Babylon.
Isaiah 14:4-17 (KJV): "4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Lusifer is "morning star" and represents the king as a political luminary. Like the morning star he arises in the morning, reaches his zenith, and then descends. With the king of Babylon it is a parable of God raising him up at first, then of his pride and demise.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello Trevor. Thanks for the comment.
It is a Biblical style of writing while addressing 2 people. Christ also did that when he addressed Peter by saying "Get behind me Satan".
The text of Isa.14 is addressed to the King of Babylon and someone else that made these "I will" claims. Vv.12-15 clearly could not be accomplished by the King of the Babylon all by himself, especially in an unfamiliar turf, like heaven. This most probably is a spiritual being. He is called a morning star. And it fits within a literal context.
Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

So a bit like God saying through the prophet- 'I remember when lucifer fell, and you are gonna fall just as badly'?

Kind of, yes. But it is more than that.
It appears that he is addressing the King AND the spirit being. Christ did that once when he addressed Peter, yet said "get behind me Satan". Satan was with Peter ... and with the King of the Babylon.
Thanks,
Ed

 

[Abiel]

I got ya!

 

[PaladinValer]

Isaiah is comparing the king of Babylon to Pagan deities

 

[TrevorL]

Howdy Edial,

Greetings again. I appreciate your comment. Edial wrote:

"It is a Biblical style of writing while addressing 2 people. Christ also did that when he addressed Peter by saying "Get behind me Satan"."

Although I appreciate your parallel, I do not see evidence that Isaiah 14 is speaking to two people.

Edial wrote:

The text of Isa.14 is addressed to the King of Babylon and someone else that made these "I will" claims. Vv.12-15 clearly could not be accomplished by the King of the Babylon all by himself, especially in an unfamiliar turf, like heaven. This most probably is a spiritual being. He is called a morning star. And it fits within a literal context.

Isaiah sees the rise of Babylon and its demise. He uses figurative language of the morning star, representing the king of Babylon. Historically this represents kings Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar.

The figurative language is extended to picture the pride of the king in claiming rulership in the place of God.
Isaiah 14:12-15 (KJV): "12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
The figure of the "morning star" is also enlarged in v.13 by the figure of "the stars of God" and these also represent other rulers, possibly the angels of God and/or the priests, princes and king of Judah. The passage then flows on to state that the morning star is to have dominance over Jerusalem and the Temple.

One of the actual boasts of Nebuchadnezzar is recorded in
Daniel 4:30 (KJV): "The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?"
Babylon was built and embellished by slave labour from his many conquests, claiming victory to his own prowess, and to his gods. He does not include his gods in his boast here in Daniel 4:30. Because Nebuchadnezzar was humbled by God and repented he was spared. The judgments came on his son Belshazzar, who revealed his pride in his disdain for the things of God when he ordered the vessels from the Temple to be used in his drunken revelry. The suddeness of his demise was realised when Daniel pronounced his overthrow on the very day of his revelry.

Thus the figurative language is consistent throughout showing the beauty and poetry of the prophetic word. The morning star speaks of the king of Babylon, his sudden bright appearance in the political heavens, his boastfulness and pride in his conquests, his sudden demise.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Abiel]

So no need to include lucifer in this directly?

 

[Theophorus]

So no need to include lucifer in this directly?

No I would not say that. It has a double meaning as was stated above. The language may be symbolic, but if it is, it is for a reason. The king of babylon has mirrored the blasphemy of Satan, Hence that is why the symbolism has meaning. It is the account of the rebellion of satan that gives the meaning to the earthly events, not the other way around.

 

[Edial]

So no need to include lucifer in this directly?

There is no reason to take these things symbolically if there is an explanation.
Jesus spoke to Peter -

MT 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

If you believe that this is figurative, fine.
However, it is not consistent with the hermeneutical interpretation of the text.

Jesus spoke to Peter and the Satan at the same time.
Same is in the Isaiah.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[PaladinValer]

Lucifer was never originally a name for the Devil. Lucifer originally was the name of a Roman deity who was the son of Venus. As Isaiah wrote long before Rome, it is inconcievable that the passage is alluding at all to the Devil.

 

[Edial]

Hi there, Trevor.

Howdy Edial,

Greetings again. I appreciate your comment. Although I appreciate your parallel, I do not see evidence that Isaiah 14 is speaking to two people.

Isaiah sees the rise of Babylon and its demise. He uses figurative language of the morning star, representing the king of Babylon. Historically this represents kings Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar.

OK, Here is the text again,
ISA 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! ISA 14:13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. ISA 14:14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Outside of the figurative language, these are applied to a spiritual being. (Especially v.14).

ISA 14:15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. ISA 14:16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, ISA 14:17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"

And vv.14-17 are applied to a man.


Since Jesus said to Peter "Get behind me Satan" it shows that it is possible to speak to an additional spiritual being while addressing the man.

We also know that the Satan/demons can possess and/or oppress.

We know that Peter had Satan's agenda in mind while discouraging Jesus from dieing. (Many of us would have discouraged Jesus from dieing, also). Regardless of this, Peter and Satan were in agreement.

In the case of the Isaiah. the king and the spiritual being of the top verses are also in the agreement.

The literal interpretation of the text agrees with another part of the Scriptures. Therefore there is no reason to interpret it figuratively ... unless I am missing other texts here.

And I appreciate the historical explanation concerning the Babylon.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Lucifer was never originally a name for the Devil. Lucifer originally was the name of a Roman deity who was the son of Venus. As Isaiah wrote long before Rome, it is inconcievable that the passage is alluding at all to the Devil.

The passage is partially alluding to a "Morning Star" that has the following characteristics -
ISA 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! ISA 14:13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. ISA 14:14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

The language does not disagree with description of the Satan.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[PaladinValer]

Straw Man, Edial.

You need to prove historically that "Lucifer" was known by the Hebrews in Isaiah's time. As that isn't possible, then the original context of the passage cannot be subscribed to describe the Devil.

The very Hebrew words used are references to Pagan deities, but not Lucifer, as that was a Latin deity and term. Similar, yes, but since it is out of place, it is illogical and void to suggest it.

Put the verse into context with the king and Isaiah is simply warning him against his haughtiness.

 

[Edial]

Straw Man, Edial.

You need to prove historically that "Lucifer" was known by the Hebrews in Isaiah's time. As that isn't possible, then the original context of the passage cannot be subscribed to describe the Devil.

The proper interpretation of the Bible is applicable by the hermeneutical methodology. That is, comparing the Bible with the Bible.
The historical evidences, among other things, must also be taken into the consideration.
If one cannot prove historically that "Lucifer" was known by the Hebrews does not prove that they did not. (I am certain that one of the many types of the fallacies could be attached to such reasoning).
And I never stated that I am talking about Lucifer. I stated that this is a Morning Star, the description of which is consistent with a spititual being and could also be consistent with that of a Satan.
And, it is VERY easy to prove the existance os Satan based on the ancient Hebrew writings.

The very Hebrew words used are references to Pagan deities, but not Lucifer, as that was a Latin deity and term. Similar, yes, but since it is out of place, it is illogical and void to suggest it.

Put the verse into context with the king and Isaiah is simply warning him against his haughtiness.

The fact that pagan deities have similar names does not disqualify nor qualify the argument.
But I will not stop you from interpreting it any way you choose.

Thanks,
Ed