Is Your Pastor Qualified?

[Occams Barber]

Is Your Pastor Qualified?

Churches come in all shapes and sizes from the corporate monoliths like Catholicism to the multi-national franchise models like the Baptists to totally independent, non-denominational corner or home churches.

No matter what their size or governance structure, these churches have one thing in common – they all need leadership at the local level. Whether it’s a priest, pastor, parson, preacher, padre, father, mother, minister, vicar, elder, sister, deacon, convenor or just plain ‘leader’ they all need someone who’s more or less running the show.

This raises a question;

In your opinion does your local church leadership position require a specified, minimum set of skills and a minimum knowledge base? ​

I’m not here referring to a ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ type qualification. Enthusiasm is great but it isn’t a skillset… or… is enthusiasm all you really need in your church leader?

Is an in-depth knowledge of Christian theology and church specific doctrine essential?​

Are there other skills/knowledge which are essential to the role of a church leader?​

Without wanting to lead your answers I’m looking for any essentials beyond the purely theological/doctrinal.

Is your church providing its up and coming leaders with the right skills and knowledge?​

This question assumes a more ‘corporate’, mainstream denomination with a formal educational/preparation stage.

TLR Summary:
What skills/knowledge your do your church leaders need, what do they actually have and what’s missing?

NB I’m allowing that qualifications/skills/knowledge can be gained from experience as well as formal training.
OB

 

[Paidiske]

In your opinion does your local church leadership position require a specified, minimum set of skills and a minimum knowledge base? ​

I’m not here referring to a ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ type qualification. Enthusiasm is great but it isn’t a skillset… or… is enthusiasm all you really need in your church leader?

Yes. An academic minimum is required.

Is an in-depth knowledge of Christian theology and church specific doctrine essential?

There's always a question about how much is enough, but certainly I would argue that I would be much worse at my job without either of those.​

Are there other skills/knowledge which are essential to the role of a church leader?

​

Without wanting to lead your answers I’m looking for any essentials beyond the purely theological/doctrinal.

Three areas spring to mind immediately; leading and managing change; legal compliance; and a practical skill set to do with things like being able to understand the parish budget and accounts, how to chair a meeting, set an agenda, all of that sort of managerial stuff. Ideally all of these would be shared with competent lay people, but if you have no knowledge or skill of these in ministry you're in a bad place.

Is your church providing its up and coming leaders with the right skills and knowledge?

​

This question assumes a more ‘corporate’, mainstream denomination with a formal educational/preparation stage.

Yes and no. What I got (and am continuing to get, in formal denominationally provided post-ordination training) has on the whole been worthwhile and beneficial. There are gaps, though; and I have lost track of the number of things I've tried to address while thinking "Theological college never prepared me for this!"

I observe that theological education and formation is not a nimble discipline; people being trained today are getting what would have prepared them excellently for the church of yesterday; and don't ask what we might need for the church of tomorrow. I don't know that that is an easy thing to deal with in any meaningful way, but I think it is something that we ought at least to be mindful of.

 

[Sketcher]

They should follow the pattern for overseers and deacons in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well."​

 

[Occams Barber]

They should follow the pattern for overseers and deacons in 1 Timothy 3:1-12.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil. Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well."​

Thanks Sketcher
What you're talking about is basically "attitude" as the third leg of the skills/knowledge/attitude triangle. It also falls under the general heading of 'character' references. I (intentionally) talked about skills and knowledge. I'm also looking for stuff which can be translated into a modern 21st century environment.
OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Yes. An academic minimum is required.

There's always a question about how much is enough, but certainly I would argue that I would be much worse at my job without either of those.​

​

Three areas spring to mind immediately; leading and managing change; legal compliance; and a practical skill set to do with things like being able to understand the parish budget and accounts, how to chair a meeting, set an agenda, all of that sort of managerial stuff. Ideally all of these would be shared with competent lay people, but if you have no knowledge or skill of these in ministry you're in a bad place.

​

Yes and no. What I got (and am continuing to get, in formal denominationally provided post-ordination training) has on the whole been worthwhile and beneficial. There are gaps, though; and I have lost track of the number of things I've tried to address while thinking "Theological college never prepared me for this!"

I observe that theological education and formation is not a nimble discipline; people being trained today are getting what would have prepared them excellently for the church of yesterday; and don't ask what we might need for the church of tomorrow. I don't know that that is an easy thing to deal with in any meaningful way, but I think it is something that we ought at least to be mindful of.

Thank you Paidiske
Given our past conversations I'm going to carefully avoid any interrogatory about public speaking training.

It's probably obvious that I'm interested in differences so I will put your answer aside (probably in a spread sheet - I'm like that) and see what else comes in. With any luck (and more sensible answers) I may be able to see patterns.

In the meantime you might like to rate yourself against Sketcher's leadership criterion. Since your self assessment will involve significant soul searching, and a mental change of gender, I really don't need to know how you went.
OB

 

[Heber Book List]

Formal qualifications in theology (1st or 2nd Degree) are ideal for a pastor nowadays, but the key is for pastors to continue with regular post ordination training, preferably paid for by his/her church or denomination, and I don't just mean attending a few seminars in the summer months instead of a holiday!

No two days are the same, in our work, and it is not unusual to work many more hours than the average for those in secular work. You can find yourself doing a member's funeral in the morning, and then a leadership meeting, after a hurried lunch, where the business may well include such mundane things as what colour to paint the toilets.

Hebrews 13:17 should be nailed on the outside of every church office door.

As for theology, one can't specify what all ministers must believe, apart from the basics (they must be a Christian), it is up to the congregation that calls them; the variations and computations are endless.

Paidiske - if you had to know it all before being ordained, you would never leave theology college!

 

[Occams Barber]

I have lost track of the number of things I've tried to address while thinking "Theological college never prepared me for this!"

Sorry I pressed Send a bit prematurely.

Can you fill in any, in broad terms, things you weren't prepared for? (assuming you could have been trained in preparation)

Ta
OB

 

[Mountainmike]

The Catholic Church certainly recognised but far too late, that it wasn't sufficient for bishops to be Godly men - they needed training in such as abuse, and management skills. That now means anyone in any capacity ( including laity) is given training in such areas.

Sadly the horse had already bolted, and we've lived with the consequences ever since. We are of course not the only ones. C of E has had its own torrid time, as indeed have most organisations dealing with kids.

Is Your Pastor Qualified?

Churches come in all shapes and sizes from the corporate monoliths like Catholicism to the multi-national franchise models like the Baptists to totally independent, non-denominational corner or home churches.

No matter what their size or governance structure, these churches have one thing in common – they all need leadership at the local level. Whether it’s a priest, pastor, parson, preacher, padre, father, mother, minister, vicar, elder, sister, deacon, convenor or just plain ‘leader’ they all need someone who’s more or less running the show.

This raises a question;

In your opinion does your local church leadership position require a specified, minimum set of skills and a minimum knowledge base? ​

I’m not here referring to a ‘filled with the Holy Spirit’ type qualification. Enthusiasm is great but it isn’t a skillset… or… is enthusiasm all you really need in your church leader?

Is an in-depth knowledge of Christian theology and church specific doctrine essential?​

Are there other skills/knowledge which are essential to the role of a church leader?​

Without wanting to lead your answers I’m looking for any essentials beyond the purely theological/doctrinal.

Is your church providing its up and coming leaders with the right skills and knowledge?​

This question assumes a more ‘corporate’, mainstream denomination with a formal educational/preparation stage.

TLR Summary:
What skills/knowledge your do your church leaders need, what do they actually have and what’s missing?

NB I’m allowing that qualifications/skills/knowledge can be gained from experience as well as formal training.
OB

 

[Paidiske]

In the meantime you might like to rate yourself against Sketcher's leadership criterion. Since your self assessment will involve significant soul searching, and a mental change of gender, I really don't need to know how you went.
OB

Oh don't worry. I've long since made my peace with the pastoral epistles.

Actually the part of that which I find an ongoing challenge is being hospitable. Genuine hospitality requires time, thoughtfulness, and personal generosity; and some days those things are in short supply. I remind myself often that it's not an optional extra but a way of life I'm called to, to be hospitable.

Things I wasn't prepared for. Responding to disclosures of abuse (I don't just mean legal obligations, which we did get; I mean a good solid working knowledge of trauma and pastoral best practice in response); liturgical singing (I mean the kind of high-church service where much of the liturgy is chanted solo and a cappella by the clergy, which I had to learn on the fly in my first role post-ordination); dealing with parish amalgamations; how to run a stewardship campaign; scoping out a new area of mission/ministry (eg: at the moment my parish wants to start offering services in Auslan - sign language - and I first need to work out what would be involved in that project)... and on it goes! That's just a few things which come to mind.

 

[Occams Barber]

Formal qualifications in theology (1st or 2nd Degree) are ideal for a pastor nowadays, but the key is for pastors to continue with regular post ordination training, preferably paid for by his/her church or denomination, and I don't just mean attending a few seminars in the summer months instead of a holiday!

No two days are the same, in our work, and it is not unusual to work many more hours than the average for those in secular work. You can find yourself doing a member's funeral in the morning, and then a leadership meeting, after a hurried lunch, where the business may well include such mundane things as what colour to paint the toilets.

Hebrews 13:17 should be nailed on the outside of every church office door.

As for theology, one can't specify what all ministers must believe, apart from the basics (they must be a Christian), it is up to the congregation that calls them; the variations and computations are endless.

Paidiske - if you had to know it all before being ordained, you would never leave theology college!

Thank you HBL (I don't understand the significance of your name.)
While you've mentioned a range of non-theological tasks, I noticed that you only talked about theological training. Given the range of things you are called to deal with I find it surprising that your training seems to be restricted to theology. If this is the case I can see you having significant difficulties.

Were you never given training in things like psychology or counselling or finance or management?
OB

 

[Paidiske]

Were you never given training in things like psychology or counselling or finance or management?

If I have understood his previous posts correctly, HBL and I undertook training in the same denomination but different countries.

I have no formal training in psychology or counselling (I did bring a bit of psych study from my science degree). Pastoral care does cover some of the same basic ground. I also have no formal training in finance. Depends what you mean by management; that has come mostly as part of post-ordination training.

 

[Llleopard]

My husband has been a pastor, and is currently considering an offer to be one again. He left school at 14, without being able to read and write. When he was saved at 27 years old, he was given a Bible, and miraculously began to read. He has no qualifications at all, but an amazing knowledge and understanding of the Bible and its principles. His career path has been varied - he has been a farmer, shearer, stock manager, beekeeper, social worker, employment consultant, business manager and owner, and many other things - all with enormous success as he applies himself and brings all his knowledge and experience to each postion.
We have found that positions like hospital chaplain and pastor place great emphasis on ' a theological qualification' and other pieces of paper. (to the point of being interviewed, and told that he was the stand out best candidate, best references, best for the job...but no qual, so sorry! 6 months later, this position is still vacant) However, his experience in life MORE than qualifies him to pastor. He is experienced and brilliant at management, training, conflict resolution, counselling, social work, budgeting, administration etc etc - as well as gifted in many spiritual areas. He has a vast knowledge of church and Bible history, gained through years of personal interest, and is well known for his sound teaching - respected by people who are respected themselves. The churches he has been in and associated with have recognised his value, and his references are astonishing - but some places still struggle to accept that without paper, someone can have worth.
I would like to say that.....in NZ, NONE of the theological courses offered currently have ANY course work about the Kingdom of God. Wot??? That was Jesus' main ministry, and it doesn't rate a mention.
The churches we see that are struggling in our town - Baptist, Anglican, Methodist etc who are looking for leaders ALL have had ministers with 'qualifications'. The track record doesn't look that flash. Their churches are on the verge of dying - there are no people trained up in them to take over, no vision, lack of Biblical understanding........and still they want yet another person with a 'qualification'. If you keep doing the same thing....you're going to get the same result. Paper is not everything, especially in ministry. I think.

 

[Llleopard]

Also, I come from the Open Brethren tradition. We have elders, but no pastor. The Holy Spirit leads the meetings, and there is absolutely no 'head' person. Brethren often go to Bible School, but not to become ministers. Usually for their own knowledge and to bring a different flavour to their assembly, or with a view to mission work.

 

[Heber Book List]

Thank you HBL (I don't understand the significance of your name.)
While you've mentioned a range of non-theological tasks, I noticed that you only talked about theological training. Given the range of things you are called to deal with I find it surprising that your training seems to be restricted to theology. If this is the case I can see you having significant difficulties.

Were you never given training in things like psychology or counselling or finance or management?
OB

I was senior manager of an international company in the City, prior to Ordination, some 30 years ago. Training is usually about 4 years and, as Paidiske found out, it is only a beginning, and rightly so. A minister who does not continue in training, will soon find that he / she cannot cope!

They were just a sample in response to the thread. I made the point about POT because ministers need to keep up with the whole gamut of training needed to be effective. I was a Chaplain in the local hospital, I trained as a Mission Enabler, I have two theology related degrees (and a Diploma), etc etc. I didn't put all you need to know to be a minister as the list is almost endless - hence my comment to Paidiske at the end of my post!

When I trained there was no training for many of these things, you were just taught theology, pastoral studies, and few very basic tasks like officiating at Baptism. I wasn't taught how to perform a marriage, to receive people into membership, how to 'do' communion, a funeral, etc etc. But that was a long time ago!

Heber Book List is because I run, on CF, a booklist about Messianic Judaism.

 

[Occams Barber]

Oh don't worry. I've long since made my peace with the pastoral epistles.

I hope the transgender surgery goes well for you.

Actually the part of that which I find an ongoing challenge is being hospitable. Genuine hospitality requires time, thoughtfulness, and personal generosity; and some days those things are in short supply. I remind myself often that it's not an optional extra but a way of life I'm called to, to be hospitable.

Hmmm - lacks empathy, poor time management. Seriously, this side of the work has a lot to do with self maintenance. I'm not sure there's specific training but there is an element of "Know thyself" and "Forgive thyself".

Things I wasn't prepared for. Responding to disclosures of abuse (I don't just mean legal obligations, which we did get; I mean a good solid working knowledge of trauma and pastoral best practice in response);

Definitely psych topics. I would have assumed that basic psych plus counselling training would have been bread and butter basic given what you do.

iturgical singing (I mean the kind of high-church service where much of the liturgy is chanted solo and a cappella by the clergy, which I had to learn on the fly in my first role post-ordination);
Every job involves learning new skills. Celebrate the difference. Be thankful it wasn't juggling sharp knives.

dealing with parish amalgamations;

Change management or, alternatively: banging elderly ladies' heads together

how to run a stewardship campaign; scoping out a new area of mission/ministry (eg: at the moment my parish wants to start offering services in Auslan - sign language - and I first need to work out what would be involved in that project)

Change management and something to do with fingers.

Summary: supplementary training (assuming you didn't get it) = intermediate psych plus trauma counselling; a self maintenance thing - usually a confidential let down to a professional listener - preferably not another priest; change management + change management; a bit of sociology wouldn't hurt; much laughter and... I have no idea what 'stewardship' is. I'm going to ignore the singing.
OB

 

[Paidiske]

I think you'll find, Llleopard, that the Kingdom gets covered in various units, (Biblical studies and ecclesiology come to mind) that might not have the word in the unit title.

OB, nooo, never ignore the singing! Done right it's an absolute highlight.

 

[Heber Book List]

If I have understood his previous posts correctly, HBL and I undertook training in the same denomination but different countries.

I have no formal training in psychology or counselling (I did bring a bit of psych study from my science degree). Pastoral care does cover some of the same basic ground. I also have no formal training in finance. Depends what you mean by management; that has come mostly as part of post-ordination training.

I was trained and ordained in a Reformed church, though I currently attend an Anglican church, and I take services for the Methodist Church. I do think it is archaic that I cannot be placed on the Parish Roll because I do not have an Anglican ordination, and I am not a Lay person! But let's not derail the thread too much about that!

 

[Paidiske]

Anglican clergy can't be placed on the parish roll either. We are forever removed from that, even in retirement.

 

[Occams Barber]

My husband has been a pastor, and is currently considering an offer to be one again. He left school at 14, without being able to read and write. When he was saved at 27 years old, he was given a Bible, and miraculously began to read. He has no qualifications at all, but an amazing knowledge and understanding of the Bible and its principles. His career path has been varied - he has been a farmer, shearer, stock manager, beekeeper, social worker, employment consultant, business manager and owner, and many other things - all with enormous success as he applies himself and brings all his knowledge and experience to each postion.
We have found that positions like hospital chaplain and pastor place great emphasis on ' a theological qualification' and other pieces of paper. (to the point of being interviewed, and told that he was the stand out best candidate, best references, best for the job...but no qual, so sorry! 6 months later, this position is still vacant) However, his experience in life MORE than qualifies him to pastor. C. He has a vast knowledge of church and Bible history, gained through years of personal interest, and is well known for his sound teaching - respected by people who are respected themselves. The churches he has been in and associated with have recognised his value, and his references are astonishing - but some places still struggle to accept that without paper, someone can have worth.
I would like to say that.....in NZ, NONE of the theological courses offered currently have ANY course work about the Kingdom of God. Wot??? That was Jesus' main ministry, and it doesn't rate a mention.
The churches we see that are struggling in our town - Baptist, Anglican, Methodist etc who are looking for leaders ALL have had ministers with 'qualifications'. The track record doesn't look that flash. Their churches are on the verge of dying - there are no people trained up in them to take over, no vision, lack of Biblical understanding........and still they want yet another person with a 'qualification'. If you keep doing the same thing....you're going to get the same result. Paper is not everything, especially in ministry. I think.

Thanks Llleopard. If you look at the end of my original post you'll see I mentioned experience as an absolutely legit way of learning. This line from your post stood out:

He is experienced and brilliant at management, training, conflict resolution, counselling, social work, budgeting, administration etc etc - as well as gifted in many spiritual areas. He has a vast knowledge of church and Bible history, gained through years of personal interest,

basically because it covers the range of subjects I would see as an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM for a church leader. I am staggered at what I'm hearing about the theological emphasis to the detriment of people skills.

You've also helped to identify the differences between what knowledge etc. some churches ask for and what they probably need.

Thank you
OB

 

[Occams Barber]

I was senior manager of an international company in the City, prior to Ordination, some 30 years ago. Training is usually about 4 years and, as Paidiske found out, it is only a beginning, and rightly so. A minister who does not continue in training, will soon find that he / she cannot cope!

They were just a sample in response to the thread. I made the point about POT because ministers need to keep up with the whole gamut of training needed to be effective. I was a Chaplain in the local hospital, I trained as a Mission Enabler, I have two theology related degrees (and a Diploma), etc etc. I didn't put all you need to know to be a minister as the list is almost endless - hence my comment to Paidiske at the end of my post!

When I trained there was no training for many of these things, you were just taught theology, pastoral studies, and few very basic tasks like officiating at Baptism. I wasn't taught how to perform a marriage, to receive people into membership, how to 'do' communion, a funeral, etc etc. But that was a long time ago!

Heber Book List is because I run, on CF, a booklist about Messianic Judaism.

I appreciate that you have a wealth of background experience which hopefully helps with your ministry.

Speaking in general terms I'm a little alarmed that the formal training I'm hearing about is woefully inadequate for the job you people do. I accept that, like most jobs, you can't know everything and there is much to be learned on the job, but I would expect some basic exposure to psychology, grief/trauma counselling, sociology, people management, basic finance etc.

So far I'm getting the impression that letting a young person loose on an unsuspecting congregation with this level of training is a recipe for disaster for him and them.

I'll be interested to learn what the Catholics teach their priests.
OB