Is Yeshua the Passover?

annier · Jan 14, 2013

My comments concerned the use of the term "zuwr", being used for ISRAELITES, in those passagesnot the uncircumcised. Circumcision had nothing to do with it. The Israelites were ESTRANGED from the tabernacle of God. Estranged from the priesthood. They were no more citizens in that house, than Gentiles were, despite being circumcised. That was what my post was about.

Yahudim · Jan 15, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Isn't Revelation 5:9 symbolizing Jesus as the passover lamb?

4967. sphage sfag-ay' from 4969; butchery (of animals for food or sacrifice, or (figuratively) of men (destruction)):--slaughter.
4969. sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):--

Hi LLoJ,

You do understand that Y'shua was not slain on the Altar of Sacrifice in the courtyard of the Temple, right? Nor was He slain in a private home by slitting His throat; His blood to be smeared upon the doorposts while those gathered within consumed His flesh by lamplight. He had no horns, no wool, no hooves, etc. His uneaten remains were not consumed by fire before dawn. So what are you trying to ask?

Yahudim · Jan 15, 2013

annier said:
My comments concerned the use of the term "zuwr", being used for ISRAELITES, in those passagesnot the uncircumcised. Circumcision had nothing to do with it. The Israelites were ESTRANGED from the tabernacle of God. Estranged from the priesthood. They were no more citizens in that house, than Gentiles were, despite being circumcised. That was what my post was about.

Is there a question? Because it seems that you are attempting to teach in a forum where you are not a member, dear.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 15, 2013

annier said:
Something to consider...
Christ made an atonement/ reconcilliation for sin as our passover.

Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them:
but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

Who ARE THE STRANGERS HERE? And what is the distinctiveness of these strangers? I will embolden the points I think ring significant here.
02114 רוז zuwr zoor
a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 541}
AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77
1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated
I would like to put forth my thoughts on this for a moment.

ESTRANGEMENT, like unto the notion of the separation of married couples which legally termed estranged from each other.
Those which are ESTRANGED FROM THE PRIESTS HOUSEHOLD. JEW OR GENTILE, BOTH STRANGERS FROM THE HOLY FOOD.
SEE HERE.....
Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Le 22:12 If the priests daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things.
Le 22:13 But if the priests daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her fathers house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her fathers meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.

Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priests office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.

Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priests office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priests office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Take note however of this.......

Lev 22:10 There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
11 But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

And these....
1cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are Gods.
1cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

and these

Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement <2643>.
Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling <2643> of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation <2643>;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation <2643>.

This is about EATING, of the holy things of the priest YESHUA. BEING RECONCILED, no longer estranged. Having been purchased by his blood of atonement. BORN AGAIN.

Good points...

Gxg (G²) · Jan 15, 2013

annier said:
My comments concerned the use of the term "zuwr", being used for ISRAELITES, in those passagesnot the uncircumcised. Circumcision had nothing to do with it. The Israelites were ESTRANGED from the tabernacle of God. Estranged from the priesthood. They were no more citizens in that house, than Gentiles were, despite being circumcised. That was what my post was about.

That has been taught in a number of Messianic Jewish synagouges for decades - as it concerns how strangers also applied to the Hebrews in certain respects when they themselves could not touch the things as the priests were allowed to - and I'm assuming that is also what was taught at the Messianic fellowship you used to attend before, correct? Just trying to be certain in light of the experiences you've had in Messianic Judaism.

That said..it needs to be remembered more on how the Tabernacle itself wasn't something where everyone was able to go in/chill.

The entire compound was surrounded by a high fence with only one entrance. For a person could not simply come from any direction into the tabernacle as he pleased. He had to enter through the one gate, which was always located to the east (so that people were facing west when they entered the tabernacle — a direct opposition to the pagan sun worshippers of the day who always faced east). Upon entering the gate, he encountered the brazen altar, where he was to present his animal offering, and then hand the reigns over to the priests, who make atonement and intercession for him in the tent.

The portable structure was erected by the Israelites at the command of God to accompany them in their journeys through the wilderness, as told in the book of Exodus (Exodus 25:1-31; Exodus 25:17; Exodus 35:1-4 and Exodus 38). The Tabernacle consisted of an outer courtyard, oblong in shape, 100 cubits by 50 cubits. This enclosure consisted of all-round hangings with an opening, the entrance, at the east side. These hangings were the means of separating the sacred spot from the profane realm outside it. However, it did not form a cover to the area within it, which was open to the sky.

A screen was placed at the entrance to the Holy Place to divide it off from rest of the courtyard and another screen at the entrance to the courtyard. There were thus three separate entrances. Each of these entrances led to a more sacred spot: the entrance to the courtyard, with a screen in front, the entrance to the Holy Place, with a screen in front, and the entrance to the Holy of Holies, with the curtain in front.Only the priests were allowed to enter the Holy Place and no one was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies, except the High Priest on Yom Kippur.

The Ark was placed in the Holy of Holies behind the curtain. In the Holy Place there was a table in the North, the menorah in the south, and a golden altar, the altar of incense, placed in front of the curtain in front of the Ark at the entrance to the Holy of Holies. The table and altar were made the made of wood overlain with gold but the menorah was of solid gold. In the eastern square of the courtyard were placed the wooden altar covered with copper, upon which the sacrifices were burnt and their blood sprinkled, and a laver for the washing of the hands and feet of the priests.

The altar was the place for burning animal sacrifices and it showed the Israelites that the first step for sinful man to approach a holy God was to be cleansed by the blood of an innocent creature. For a sin offering, a person had to bring an animal — a male one without blemish or defect from the flock or herd — to the priest at the tabernacle gate.

“He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.” (Leviticus 1:4)

By laying his hand upon the head of the offering, the person was identifying with the sacrifice. His sin and guilt was being moved from himself to the animal. The priest would then slaughter the animal, sprinkle its blood in front of the veil of the Holy Place, burn the sacrifice, and pour the rest of it at the bottom of the altar.

“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.” (Leviticus 17:11)

“The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” (Hebrews 9:22)

Then you had the Veil. The picture of the veil was that of a barrier between man and God, showing man that the holiness of God could not be trifled with. For God’s eyes are too pure to look on evil and He can tolerate no sin (Habakkuk 1:13). Whoever entered into the Holy of Holies was entering the very presence of God..and anyone except the high priest who entered the Holy of Holies would die. Even the high priest, God’s chosen mediator with His people, could only pass through the veil and enter this sacred dwelling once a year, on a prescribed day called the Day of Atonement.The veil was a barrier to make sure that man could not carelessly and irreverently enter into God’s awesome presence. Even as the high priest entered the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement, he had to make some meticulous preparations: He had to wash himself, put on special clothing, bring burning incense to let the smoke cover his eyes from a direct view of God, and bring blood with him to make atonement for sins.

“But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.” (Hebrews 9:7)

Thus, the presence of God remained shielded from man behind a thick curtain during the history of Israel.

For more, one can go here for an in-depth examination - but all of that is said to make the point that worship was a big deal in Hebrew culture....and many areas were not accessible for everyone to enter into, be it Jew or Gentile.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 15, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Isn't Revelation 5:9 symbolizing Jesus as the passover lamb?

4967. sphage sfag-ay' from 4969; butchery (of animals for food or sacrifice, or (figuratively) of men (destruction)):--slaughter.
4969. sphazo sfad'-zo a primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specially), to maim (violently):--

Symbolism is rooted in what happens in the physical - with that physical being a type/reflection of the Spiritual - and it's why early Jewish believers in Jewish Christianity/Messianic Judaism often noted that Yeshua was indeed a sacrifical lamb who was slain, his blood shed to atone for us (as the Passover Lamb was) and one who offers us freedom from death.

annier · Jan 15, 2013

talmidim said:
Is there a question? Because it seems that you are attempting to teach in a forum where you are not a member, dear.

It was a post for "consideration". In other words wha do you think? Is it teaching to correct a poster on the content of my post and it's meaning?
I do not think so. This does not ring to me to be beyond those things called "messianic".

annier · Jan 15, 2013

Gxg (G²);62185040 said:
That has been taught in a number of Messianic Jewish synagouges for decades - as it concerns how strangers also applied to the Hebrews in certain respects when they themselves could not touch the things as the priests were allowed to - and I'm assuming that is also what was taught at the Messianic fellowship you used to attend before, correct? Just trying to be certain in light of the experiences you've had in Messianic Judaism.

Well, the particular word was never brought up, but no circumcision was required to partake of the "holy things" in our shul. I just assumed the analogy to Christs priesthood, was the issue, at the passover service, when we partook of that particular element.

annier · Jan 15, 2013

annier said:
Something to consider...
Christ made an atonement/ reconcilliation for sin as our passover.

Ex 29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them:
but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.

Who ARE THE STRANGERS HERE? And what is the distinctiveness of these strangers? I will embolden the points I think ring significant here.
02114 רוז zuwr zoor
a primitive root; v; {See TWOT on 541}
AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77
1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated
I would like to put forth my thoughts on this for a moment.

ESTRANGEMENT, like unto the notion of the separation of married couples which legally termed estranged from each other.
Those which are ESTRANGED FROM THE PRIESTS HOUSEHOLD. JEW OR GENTILE, BOTH STRANGERS FROM THE HOLY FOOD.
SEE HERE.....
Ex 30:33 Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 22:10 There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
Le 22:12 If the priests daughter also be married unto a stranger <02114>, she may not eat of an offering of the holy things.
Le 22:13 But if the priests daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her fathers house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her fathers meat: but there shall no stranger <02114> eat thereof.

Nu 3:10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priests office: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Nu 3:38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, even before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, shall be Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Nu 16:40 To be a memorial unto the children of Israel, that no stranger <02114>, which is not of the seed of Aaron, come near to offer incense before the LORD; that he be not as Korah, and as his company: as the LORD said to him by the hand of Moses.
Nu 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger <02114> shall not come nigh unto you.

Nu 18:7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priests office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priests office unto you as a service of gift: and the stranger <02114> that cometh nigh shall be put to death.

Take note however of this.......

Lev 22:10 There shall no stranger eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
11 But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

And these....
1cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are Gods.
1cor 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

and these

Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement <2643>.
Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling <2643> of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation <2643>;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation <2643>.

This is about EATING, of the holy things of the priest YESHUA. BEING RECONCILED, no longer estranged. Having been purchased by his blood of atonement. BORN AGAIN.

What do you all think?
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The BOTH above, speaking also of all that were estranged, and alienated from access in God,s holy house (hold). Be they near or far.

Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.[/quote]

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