Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

Zecryphon said:

To me, even if you set aside the lustful thoughts being adultery issue, and go with the rationale of "I don't have lustful thoughts while masturbating" to me you're still committing adultery, because you're still having sex with someone who is not your wife.

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holo said:

How am I bypassing her by masturbating? If she's not even here, how am I bypassing her?

Do you have a husband? Does he ever rub your back? Feels nice, doesn't it? So how come you scratch your own back sometimes? Why are you bypassing God's gift?

I don't "need" masturbation. You don't "need" candy either. You still enjoy it though, don't you?

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rosiecotton said:

God gave us freewill to decide minor things like that. He's not a micromanager, who's going to dictate every area of our lives. But the big things, like sex, He has given us rules for. If you don't want to follow His rules in this area, that's your choice. Sex is a gift from God and as such it should be respected by us and not abused by us. You say Jesus is your life, but from your posts it's clear that you are living for yourself and not for Him.

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holo said:

Not only that, it's also sex with one of your own gender - it's homosexual sex, no less!

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Zecryphon said:

Okay, since you're stating that masturbation is akin to homosexuality as well, does that change your position on the issue or is it still not a sin? In addition to the verses in the Bible where the issue of lust is addressed, you can now add all the verses on homosexuality too and see if God would be in favor of people engaging in this practice. Sounds like you have quite a bit of reading and studying to do.

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1. Sex is good and right and pure. It was created by a loving, imaginative God for procreation and pleasure.
   
   So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.... God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Genesis 1:27, 31.
   
   A man will be united to his wife and the two will become one flesh. Genesis 2:24.
   
   Rejoice in the wife of your youth! A loving doe, a graceful deer--may her breasts satisfy you at all times, my you ever be captivated by her love. Proverbs 5:18-19.
   
   Take me away with you--let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his bed chambers! Song of Songs 1:4.
   
   My lover is mine and I am his; he browses among the lilies. Until the day breaks and the shadows flee, turn, my lover, and be like a gazelle or like a young stag on the rugged hills. Song of Songs 2:16-17.
   
   God created sex to be ENJOYED. Sex was intended for pleasure. But (and here is God's limitation) sexual pleasure is always to happen within the proper context: a man and a woman who have committed their lives together in marriage.

1. THERE IS NO COMMANDMENT in the Bible regarding masturbation. In spite of what you thought I might say, I AM NOT SAYING THAT MASTURBATION IS WRONG. The Bible doesn't say that. In the absence of a clear command from God, we must always be careful of creating condemnation where God never intended it.

1. HOWEVER, we do have a clear command from God's Son Himself, concerning SEXUAL LUSTING after a person who is not your spouse.
   
   "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28.
   
   Contrary to our present culture which encourages looking at other people and "getting turned on," Jesus viewed this sin as being very serious. He urged people to radically deal with lust, and says that it is something that can keep us from eternal life (Matthew 5:29-30).
   
   Let me state it again, so that I'm not misunderstood: masturbation is not a sin in itself. The Bible doesn't say anything on the issue of masturbation. It only speaks to the sin of improper lust. So wrong desires are the sin, not masturbation.

1. Therefore, if you are masturbating AND you are lusting after someone that you are not married to, then your masturbation/lust is a sin. Most people that I have spoken to on this issue, touch using pornography, images, or imagination to lust after someone who is not their spouse. Jesus called this "missing the mark" (the meaning of one of the Greek words for sin). According to Jesus you are committing a form of adultery. You are involved in something that is unhealthy for you and for those around you. This can have consequences for your eternal body. Jesus said:
   
   "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell" Matthew 5:27-30.

• Even in marriage, your sexual "needs" are not always met. Sex in marriage has its interruptions and boring times. Health problems, pregnancies, fatigue, stress, travel separations, neglect, and fights can effect your spouse's ability to be sexually intimate.

• Spouses rarely have equal sexual desires and not all spouses are sensitive to the sexual desires of the other partner. This is why Paul said:
  
  "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Corinthians 7:3-6).

• Thought control does not always get easier after marriage; it sometimes gets harder because you are very aware of the delight of sexual fulfillment.

• I have counseled with men who have a sensitive, caring, understanding spouse and a regular and fulfilling sexual relationship, but who still compulsively touch. This is a good indication that the problem is not with being sexually fulfilled, but something deeper. "Something in me, not my spouse."

• Masturbation can become compulsive. This is certainly not true for everyone, but I've talked with men and women who masturbated up to 20 times a day. Any compulsive behavior such as this is unhealthy and stunts your ability to grow as a person. The Bible calls this "slavery" to sin - you are "missing the mark" (2 Peter 2:19). Like any other pleasure, masturbation can become an addiction. See How Sexual Experiences Become Addictions.

• Many of the men I have counseled use masturbation as a form of emotional uplift. What I mean by this is that they don't know how to properly express or handle feelings of defeat, rejection, sadness, anger, or depression. Masturbation becomes a temporary "high" or a way to anesthetize emotional pain. Masturbation was used as a substitute for learning how to properly handle negative feelings. In these cases, masturbation allowed the men to remain emotionally stunted. This spilled over into their relationships with other people, especially their wives or girl friends. One wife that I talked to said, "He uses me and masturbation like a pacifier."

• As demonstrated by Archibald Hart's research, masturbation can cause guilt feelings or at the least a sense of "this is not normal." Feelings like this make it hard for you to relate to other people: "Other people don't seem to struggle with this, the way I do. What's wrong with me? I must be different. It's better if I hide this part of myself from other people." Guilt separates you from other people. Guilt also blunts your feelings toward God: "How could God love someone like me who struggles with lust?"

• Sexual excitement starts in the mind, not your sex organs. Some individuals who compulsively touch need ever-increasing mental excitement to touch. They visualize wild sexual fantasies or use "hard pornography" (depicting sadism, rape, or child molestation) in order to touch. We'd like to think that fantasies are harmless and hurt no one. This is simply not true. As a man thinks in his heart, so he is. (Proverbs 23:7). Sexual fantasies are not at all like the loving physical relationship between a husband and wife. These fantasies will put a strain on your marriage by either comparing your spouse to your fantasies or insisting on your spouse participating in what "turns you on."

• Fantasizing in your mind makes you want to enact your fantasies -- worse sin, big trouble. I've counseled individuals who began with a habit of masturbation and so-called "soft pornography." But they couldn't stop there. They ended up in practices of child molestation, rape, bestiality, time with prostitutes, cross-dressing, public exposure, and jail time. In spite of what our culture says, lust really can kill you.

• Your lack of self-control in this area may make you susceptible to unfaithfulness in your marriage. If you cannot control your masturbation and fantasy lust (with other women), then what makes you believe you can be faithful in reality to your marriage partner?

• The guilt you feel about masturbation/lust can be transferred to thinking that all sex is dirty and wrong. This is not a correct thought process at all. The Bible teaches that sex in (the right) context is good and wonderful. But if most of your sexual experiences lead to feelings of guilt, you can begin to think of all sexual experience as "dirty."

• Romans 13:14 "Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature."

1. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 1 Corinthians 6:13
2. If you sin, it's a little bit easier to sin the next time; but the opposite is also true -- resist and it will make you stronger.
   
   Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7.
   
   Resist the devil, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. 1 Peter 5:9.
3. Therefore, I do not run like a man aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. 1 Corinthians 9:26-27.

1. I will set before my eyes no vile thing. Psalm 101:3
   
   Flee from sexual immorality. 1 Corinthians 6:18.
   
   Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:22.
   
   Find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11.
2. He who trusts in himself is a fool. Proverbs 28:26.
   
   Let not my heart be drawn to what is evil, to take part in wicked deeds with men who are evildoers; let me not eat of their delicacies. Let a righteous man strike me--it is a kindness; let him rebuke me--it is oil on my head. My head will not refuse it. Psalm 141:4-5.
   
   Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. James 5:16.
3. Change your habits of thinking. This is also the area that will take some of the most work. Quick and easy victory is unlikely. This is a war, not just a battle.
   
   Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is. Romans 12:2.
   
   Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisors they succeed. Proverbs 15:22.

1. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:14.

Floatingaxe said:

Self gratification for erotic purposes is a sin

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Floatingaxe said:

and has no corelation to eating and relaxing, which is a normal function. You are speaking about unnatural functions

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Floatingaxe said:

and describing the lack of self-control, which is a spiritual fruit.

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holo said:

Thanks for making my sarcastic point.

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Floatingaxe said:

I'm sorry, but....

You must not know many born again, spirit-led Christians.

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Zecryphon said:

I'm not making a sarcastic point. I'm saying you have alot of studying and reading to do. Where's the sarcasm in that?

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holo said:

Why? How? Why is it sinful to be gratified alone, but not by using a partner/let your partner gratify you?

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Having an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is 100% natural function. That's kind of what sexual arousment is for.

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Lack of self-control!? That makes about as much sense as if I should accuse you of lacking self control whenever you scratch your arm... it would only make sense if scratching your arm was something sinful that you should avoid.

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Floatingaxe said:

USING is the $100.00 word. Using a partner is not what sex is about. Sexual intercourse is a mutual expression of love, and the appropriate expression of love.

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Floatingaxe said:

Any other behaviour, such as masturbation is a counterfeit and not sanctioned by God.

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Floatingaxe said:

Wrong. It is an outcome, not a function.

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Floatingaxe said:

Arousal's function is for the mutual expression of love between spouses. Period.

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Floatingaxe said:

Nevertheless, any man or woman who masturbates is lacking in self-control, needs to repent and exercise self-control over that area of his or her life.

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holo said:

You weren't being sarcastic, you only confirmed the sarcasm in my post.

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holo said:

Yes, sex without love sucks.

But sex isn't an expression of love. It's an expression, if you will, of sexual arousal. People have sex because they're horny. You don't have sex with people because you love them.

A counterfeit of what?

That's what I meant.

No, biologically and naturally speaking, it's function is to reproduce.

Now look. I'm sure you actually understand what I'm saying. You can't tell a person who drinks coffee that he's lacking self-control. Not unless he actually thinks he shouldn't drink coffee. It's like a buddhist accusing you for lack of self-control because you eat meat.

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Floatingaxe said:

You have totally missed the mark and are out of touch with God's design for marriage. In fact, your post makes me sick.

Why do you disagree with all things wholesome? I do believe it stems from a lack of knowing Jesus Christ personally. Only the Holy Spirit in us shows us what the Word of God means and alerts us to wholesomeness. The way you speak manifests another spirit.

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holo said:

Uh, I guess it's... impossible, really, to try and talk with someone who judges me as manifesting another spirit just because we disagree on the topic of masturbation. I really don't know how I could even begin to respond to something like this.

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holo said:

Yeah well, I guess it's easier and quicker than to actually discuss stuff and answer questions. The same goes for Zechryphon.

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rosiecotton said:

I haven't really been in on the discussion, but wanted to just add a couple thoughts.
First off, it's funny how in the Bible (I think it's Leviticus??) God gave soooo many things sexually that we are not to do. There is at least one whole chapter that lists all these things that are wrong sexually. And masturbation is never listed.
And we must have different ways of reading holo's posts. Because by what I read and see he is living his life for Christ. I think he understands Jesus' way of living a lot more than many Christians I know.

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