Is this Veneration?

[Lisa0315]

How does one pray to Mary? Does one only say "Hail Mary Full of Grace"...? What if I prayed this:

Mary, Mother of God,
You are my hiding place, my refuge. Shelter Me, O Mother of God. My enemies surround me. I am overwhelmed. Please surround me with your love and grace. Amen.

Is this veneration?

Lisa

 

[Angeldove97]

There are different way people pray or venerate Mary. To venerate means to "regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference". Such a prayer as you state would show respect to Mary, Mother of God.

Some would be offended by saying that Mary is "my refuge", some would see it as Mary and all that she did during her life as a safe person to be with, such as a best person is a comfort instead of a stranger while you're going through a rough time. It really just goes along with what you believe.

Another prayer that is said at the end of the rosary is the Hail, Holy Queen:

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

There are many different prayers to Mary, as she is one of the most important Saints. Of course you don't have to pray in this matter, you can pray to her in just whatever kind of words you want to say.

 

[Rhamiel]

I like the Memorare personally. That is a nice prayer you have and would be nice veneration if said with proper intent. She is our Mother and she loves us, but she is not God and we must not act as if she is.

 

[Lisa0315]

Thanks for your replies. It was kind of a test, and I was really, really hoping that Catholics would pass. I was going to use this to PROVE that Catholics do not worship Mary, but venerate. You passed! Initially, I didn't think you did because some of you found this acceptable, but re-reading the posts, all of you mentioned how this might not be appropriate.

Maybe if I clarify, you will understand.

I wrote a prayer that is very, very similar to prayers that David prayed to the Lord. So, I was hoping that you would come back to say that this prayer to Mary would be VERY INAPPROPRIATE, as only God is our shelter and refuge in times of trouble.

Comments, please.

Lisa

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

How does one pray to Mary? Does one only say "Hail Mary Full of Grace"...? What if I prayed this:

Mary, Mother of God,
You are my hiding place, my refuge. Shelter Me, O Mother of God. My enemies surround me. I am overwhelmed. Please surround me with your love and grace. Amen.

Is this veneration?

Lisa

That is a most appropriate prayer.

Forgive me...

 

[Iollain]

This sounds like someone picked a Psalm and replaced God with Mary, and no it is not ok.



Psa 32:7 Thou [art] my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.


Psa 119:114 Thou [art] my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.


Deu 33:27 The eternal God [is thy] refuge, and underneath [are] the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy [them].

2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.




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Psa 9:9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

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Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD [is] his refuge.


Psa 46:1 [[To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth.]] God [is] our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.




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Psa 46:7 The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah.

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Psa 46:11 The LORD of hosts [is] with us; the God of Jacob [is] our refuge. Selah.

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Psa 48:3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.

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Psa 57:1 [[To the chief Musician, Altaschith, Michtam of David, when he fled from Saul in the cave.]] Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until [these] calamities be overpast.

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Psa 59:16 But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.

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Psa 62:7 In God [is] my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, [and] my refuge, [is] in God.

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Psa 62:8 Trust in him at all times; [ye] people, pour out your heart before him: God [is] a refuge for us. Selah.

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Psa 71:7 I am as a wonder unto many; but thou [art] my strong refuge.


Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.


Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;


Psa 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God [is] the rock of my refuge




Psa 142:5 I cried unto thee, O LORD: I said, Thou [art] my refuge [and] my portion in the land of the living.



Pro 14:26 In the fear of the LORD [is] strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.




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Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and [things] wherein [there is] no profit.


Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us





Psa 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,


Psa 17:9 From the wicked that oppress me, [from] my deadly enemies, [who] compass me about.


Psa 17:10 They are inclosed in their own fat: with their mouth they speak proudly.


Psa 17:11 They have now compassed us in our steps: they have set their eyes bowing down to the earth;


Psa 17:12 Like as a lion [that] is greedy of his prey, and as it were a young lion lurking in secret places.


Psa 17:13 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, [which is] thy sword:


Psa 17:14 From men [which are] thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, [which have] their portion in [this] life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid [treasure]: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their [substance] to their babes.


Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.


How is Mary going to surround people with her love and grace? Again, is there a Mary Spirit? I believe not.

 

[IamAdopted]

How does one pray to Mary? Does one only say "Hail Mary Full of Grace"...? What if I prayed this:

Mary, Mother of God,
You are my hiding place, my refuge. Shelter Me, O Mother of God. My enemies surround me. I am overwhelmed. Please surround me with your love and grace. Amen.

Is this veneration?

Lisa

I would say this is the replacement theory. Replacing Mary for What the bible tells us God is.

 

[talitha]

Iollain - read the whole thread - you'll see that you're right - and the OP did it as a test.

 

[Lisa0315]

That is exactly what I did. It was a test of sorts. I wanted to test the validity of veneration of Mary vs the worship of Mary. I wanted to point out and magnify the difference.

Catholics:

This was not a trick. I support you, but I am somewhat concerned over the Mary doctrines. Are you absolutely SURE that a prayer such as THIS is appropriate? Shouldn't we ONLY seek shelter from our enemies from our God? It seems some of you know the difference and some of you have a much more blurred line between God and Mary.

Regardless, I love each and every one of you, Catholic and non-Catholic.

Lisa

 

[Rhamiel]

I even thought this sounded like a psalm, that is why I stated that this is a prayer that must be said with the right intention. You must realize that Mary does not do this of her own authority or power, but through Christ. Everything comes from God, if you realize that then it is ok to petition Our Lady for help. God loves us, and the Saints (those who are saved) in heaven love God and us, I see no reason God would not work through them, to let them be part of our lives.

 

[Iollain]

Ok well refuge and hiding place, i don't know how you can say that, but that aside, how is Mary going to surround anyone with love and grace?

Of course unless you believe that Mary is the giver of all grace, because she is the holder of God's grace and the decision maker of where it will go, now all ya need is a Mary Spirit to be with people like the Holy Ghost, like how Jesus said He would be with people.............

 

[IamAdopted]

I even thought this sounded like a psalm, that is why I stated that this is a prayer that must be said with the right intention. You must realize that Mary does not do this of her own authority or power, but through Christ. Everything comes from God, if you realize that then it is ok to petition Our Lady for help. God loves us, and the Saints (those who are saved) in heaven love God and us, I see no reason God would not work through them, to let them be part of our lives.

But all whom believe In christ are saints.. Not just the ones that are with Him now in His presence..Replacement theory puts Mary on the same level as God doing the same things as God and this is not according to scripture but mens tradition.. For God has said and it has been written that I am GOD and there is no other..God does not need to be God through anyone other than Whom He is.He sent His word to show us the Father.. In Human form no less. But still we hear how God through Mary seems to give His blessings and grace and protection and on and on.. This is not based on scripture. FOr this is only one Human whom God gave us His blessing and that is In Christ. Because of Christ we can now boldly go to the throneroom of God Himself. Only through Christ will all men be saved that are to be saved..

 

[Iollain]

Iollain - read the whole thread - you'll see that you're right - and the OP did it as a test.

I don't know how anyone can say a prayer like that, it makes no sence at all.

 

[Rhamiel]

IamAdopted posted "God does not need to be God through anyone other than Whom He is.He sent His word to show us the Father."
I know God does not need to do this, but he can use his sevents to help people,
are we not called to show others the love of Christ in, our actions? I know that saints refers to those on earth as well. God uses the saints in heaven as instruments to show the world His love and mercy, he does not have to do this but he decided to. Throught history people have seen aperitions of saints and angels calling them to be closer to God and to leave sin.

 

[Rhamiel]

Every time some one mentions saints it is asked if we know there are saints on earth, do you know there are saints in heaven?
He loves the saints in heaven andHe lets them pray for us and help us. Not because he has to but because he loves us and them, when St. Paul wrote about us all being one body, do you think he was limiting that to those on earth or was he writing about the Church as a whole (heaven and earth) is he ment the entire Church, then when one part rejoices all rejoice. What about all the saints seen over the ages, we have thousands of events of people having visions of saints that help them out, good fruit coming from our brothers and sisters in heaven. God does this because he loves us and he loves them and they love us and we love them
whole lotta love people

 

[IamAdopted]

IamAdopted posted "God does not need to be God through anyone other than Whom He is.He sent His word to show us the Father."
I know God does not need to do this, but he can use his sevents to help people,
are we not called to show others the love of Christ in, our actions? I know that saints refers to those on earth as well. God uses the saints in heaven as instruments to show the world His love and mercy, he does not have to do this but he decided to. Throught history people have seen aperitions of saints and angels calling them to be closer to God and to leave sin.

So then we must ask ourselves this question. Does not Gods word tell us to do the same? These apparations I question for even the enemy can come as a light.. All we need to keep us from Sin is the written word of God. These apparitions of saints are not spoken of In the bible.. So therefore I question them as being messengers from God.. Now if you want to go talk about Moses and Elijah I must caution you that they were speaking to Jesus and not to people. And we all know that Jesus did not need to repent of any sin.

 

[IamAdopted]

Every time some one mentions saints it is asked if we know there are saints on earth, do you know there are saints in heaven?
He loves the saints in heaven andHe lets them pray for us and help us. Not because he has to but because he loves us and them, when St. Paul wrote about us all being one body, do you think he was limiting that to those on earth or was he writing about the Church as a whole (heaven and earth) is he ment the entire Church, then when one part rejoices all rejoice. What about all the saints seen over the ages, we have thousands of events of people having visions of saints that help them out, good fruit coming from our brothers and sisters in heaven. God does this because he loves us and he loves them and they love us and we love them
whole lotta love people

Show me in Gods written word where this is said of those for whom has gone on to be in the Presence of the Lord?

 

[Rhamiel]

Judge things by its fruit, we must not blindly except these spirits to be from God, but we also must not judge them as from hell without good cause. Look into history and see all the cases of saints (the one from heaven, I do not really know what to call them,) helping people, this is proof that some of them are from heaven

 

[Lisa0315]

Show me in Gods written word where this is said of those for whom has gone on to be in the Presence of the Lord?

Saints, and I am not talking about those whom Rome has declared, but ALL who die in the Lord, are the witnesses encompasssing us. THAT is in the Bible.

Lisa

 

[IamAdopted]

Judge things by its fruit, we must not blindly except these spirits to be from God, but we also must not judge them as from hell without good cause. Look into history and see all the cases of saints (the one from heaven, I do not really know what to call them,) helping people, this is proof that some of them are from heaven

How can you judge an aparation by fruit? We have to judge everything we see with scipture. For this is what we are to test things with. For it alone is God breathed and Truth..