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OntheDl, what did you think of the latest Bin Laden aka Goldstein 2 minute hate speech?
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OntheDL said:Aviation is no mystery. Whenever a plane is crashed, the black box sends a beacon signal so it can be retrieved. And wreckage can be reconstructed back to the air plane. Remember the TWA plane went down to bottom of Atlantic off of Long Island? Almost and whole plane was reconstructed.
How come is in these cases, air planes crashed to the ground, but not a single piece of wreckage was ever found? No wings, no tail section, no wheels, no engine parts. And why the Pentagon did not surfer from fire damage from all the jet fuel off of cross continental flight? Did you see the CNN footage after the crash but before the roof collapsed in the Pentagon? How could a 757 of wingspan of over 100 feet fit into a 16 feet hole? Where did the government say they have the 2 boxes? If so, where is the flight data?
What we have is a lot inconsistency between the version given to us and what really happened.
Do we dig deeper into finding the clues and evidence or just dismiss it as mysterious or unexplained?
How is that some of us don't see it coming that the government needed these kind of disasters to enforce Patriot Act and other laws to legislate away our freedom? Don’t we see the trend? After the Soviet Union was gone, we have one event after another one. The end result? Our freedom and rights are taken away. Until when will we wake up and realize?
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Sometimes we need to see who benefited from such event. Have you seen the recently declassified document that the chiefs of staff proposed in 1962 to bomb US naval ships in Guantanamo bay to provoke US military action against Cuba?Sophia7 said:It is simply not true that no wreckage was found. Some debris from the plane in Pennsylvania was found much farther away than people expected. In fact, that is one of the conspiracy theories--that possibly Flight 93 blew up before hitting the ground, or that it was shot down, thus scattering pieces farther away than they should have been if the plane had just collided with the ground. The truth is that we don't know if the version given to us was what really happened. I do know that the family members of those who were killed on the planes from which the flight recorders were recovered had the opportunity to listen to them. I saw an interview with one of those family members last night, and she talked about what was on the cockpit recorder.
I am not saying that if there are questions, we shouldn't try to find answers. I am only wondering why, when there are questions, we are so quick to believe the conspiracy theorists, who often have very slim evidence and their own agendas (books to sell, for instance), and so quick to think the worst of our government leaders and even our church leaders (to bring this back somewhat to the original topic). There is nothing wrong with examining the evidence on both sides and drawing reasonable conclusions--as long as we do give both sides fair consideration.
I understand the concerns with the Patriot Act, and I don't want to see the government go too far, either. That is something that we can try to oppose, though, by contacting our legislative representatives if we are so inclined. That is also something about which we can easily find credible information.
My concern is about jumping to unwarranted conclusions when we have not been able to examine all of the evidence. Accusing church leaders of being Jesuits or blaming Jesuits for the problems in our church (my husband just received an e-mail today implying that all of the current problems with the Adventist educational system have been caused by Jesuits) are the sorts of irrational assumptions that benefit no one and that also give others a very bad impression of our beliefs.
catlover said:OntheDl, what did you think of the latest Bin Laden aka Goldstein 2 minute hate speech?
OntheDL said:Sometimes we need to see who benefited from such event. Have you seen the recently declassified document that the chiefs of staff proposed in 1962 to bomb US naval ships in Guantanamo bay to provoke US military action against Cuba?
http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/northwoods.pdf
The government didn't go too far. It just did what was according to the plan. There are executive orders in place in the events of 2 major disasters within 6 months to provide for government to suspend the constitution, provide for FEMA to take over the private industries, all modes of transportation, resources, and to mobilize civilians in work brigades under government supervision. The evidence is all around us, how hard are we looking? Here's one.
http://www.stopcovertwar.com/executive.html
And official documents on the civilian labor/concentration camps that have been set up all over the country.
http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/con__1.jpg
http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/con2.jpg
I have more proof but not going bother with them at this time.
It is certainly within our rights to believe what we want. And it's not one piece of evidence that tells the whole story. It's after examinng all the aspects that we can come to the conclusion. And after considering all the evidence, we can decide if this is only paranoia or it is historical fact.
Satan is trying to set up his kingdom on this earth and he's using his agents to advance his cause. All the pieces are in place and all the nations are gathered against God and His people, the true Israel for the final climax. More horrors will soon come, that even 9/11 will pale in comparison. But God's people need not fear. This only means the world has nothing to offer and we should rejoice that our Lord's return is truly near.
May this be a blessing and pray God may anoint our eyes with eye salve that we may see!
http://www.sdaapostasy.org/
Ellen White, I don't beleive ever said directly that Jesuits would infect the Adventist church, but indeed they have. They are in control of the General Conference; and that is why we have new theologies, the rejection of Ellen White, doctrinal changes, "christian" rock, preachers who say we are Adventist Catholics, the list goes on and on. The Jesuits have infiltrated every country and if they haven't the "war on terror" will solve that. Bush is a member of the SKull and Bones secret society and Yale university as well as Kerry. www.infowars.com & http://www.sdaapostasy.org/ Please check both of these websites, they contain unarguable amounts of evidence.
Kyran said:Is the information on the site Haggai posted correct?
Haggai said:http://www.sdaapostasy.org/
Ellen White, I don't beleive ever said directly that Jesuits would infect the Adventist church, but indeed they have. They are in control of the General Conference; and that is why we have new theologies, the rejection of Ellen White, doctrinal changes, "christian" rock, preachers who say we are Adventist Catholics, the list goes on and on. The Jesuits have infiltrated every country and if they haven't the "war on terror" will solve that. Bush is a member of the SKull and Bones secret society and Yale university as well as Kerry. www.infowars.com & http://www.sdaapostasy.org/ Please check both of these websites, they contain unarguable amounts of evidence.
catlover said:Perhaps people within Adventism aren't as orthodox as you, and they are simply reformed Adventists?
Haggai said:I but do indeed follow what the Bible says, does this make me orthodox? The people in the main General Conference now are becoming less strict, and more liberal. 50 years ago, all SDA's were very conservative. I do not attend a GC affiliated SDA church, I attend an indepent run church, and I hear truth that we should be hearing. ALl you will hear in a GC church is about love and unity, and variations of that. ALl you will hear is about celebration. You will never hear a GC preacher preach about Daniel or Revelation or any end time events spoken of in the Bible. SDAapostasy has clear facts that the GC is corrupted. Look around on the website (http://www.sdaapostasy.org/) and you will find an abundance of evidence for this, and it will shock you if you are a traditional Adventist. The "reformed" adventists are a result of the corruption of the GC. As for politically, the Jesuits have control of every government as I said before. THe Patriot Act allows any federal agency to search your house, secretly spy on you, and much more without a court ordered warrant if they suspect you as a "terrorist." This is completely unconstitutional. But the government completely disregards the constitution. Sept. 11 attacks were to scare the Americans into submission to bills and laws to prevent further terrorism, and to create a police state, to have control over the people. And it is working successfully. (www.infowars.com) Ever wonder why, with such advanced technology, they can't ever find that tricky Osama Bin Laden? It's because he is their puppet. The sinking of the titanic was on purpose, to eliminate the rich, who would with their power stop the production of a National Bank which the Jesuits wanted in America, to have control over all money. The South would have never attacked the north if it werent for the aid of the Jesuits (civil war) (Abraham Lincoln said it himself). Every war since the civil war has been instigated by the Jesuits. There will eventually be a WWIII, we will invade Iran and this will be the beginning of it. This is all to create a universal sunday law (or rest day) in America and then the world. In 1888, the Blair Bill was presented to congress which was to make a national rest day, it was supported by the Lord's Day Alliance and other organizations, but was eventually thrown out. There is soo much evidence for this, and more than evidence, solid proof, that the Jesuits of Rome are in control. (www.pacinst.com) An SDA minister whom visits my church yearly has interviewed and recorded on video, an ex-Jesuit priest, whom confirms all of this. John F. Kennedy was assassinated by, yours truley, the Jesuits. He wanted to put us back on the gold-standard (meaning all our money would be equivilant to a certain amount of gold, which gives our money real value, but now our money is worth but the paper it is made out of, the government says its 10 bucks, its 10 bucks.), and he wanted to reform many other things, the Rome couldn't have this, and a few days before he would have signed the bills, he was assassinated. The Federal Building in Oklahoma city, blown up by McVey? Nay, but the Jesuits, the building was blown from the inside out, there is much proof for this documented on video on infowars.com Bombs were planted inside.
This is not a time to be preaching peace and safety, but a message of "get ready, get ready, get ready"
Kyran said:I was referring to the articles on the site SDAapostasy.
Especially, General Conference hallowing Sunday worship in a book it published- under SDA Churches and Sunday and It is Written Threatens Lawsuit under SDA threats and persecution. Its just insane if they are correct.
Testimonies for the Church Volume One, page 577, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Sketch of Experience
In this state of things it was decided that we would return to Battle Creek and there remain while the roads were in a muddy, broken-up condition, and that I would there complete No. 12. My husband was very anxious to see his brethren at Battle Creek and speak to them and rejoice with them in the work which God was doing for him. I gathered up my writings, and we started on our journey. On the way we held two meetings in Orange and had evidence that the church
578
was profited and encouraged. We were ourselves refreshed by the Spirit of the Lord. That night I dreamed that I was in Battle Creek looking out from the side glass at the door and saw a company marching up to the house, two and two. They looked stern and determined. I knew them well and turned to open the parlor door to receive them, but thought I would look again. The scene was changed. The company now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they approached, the one carrying a reed made a circle around the house, saying three times: "This house is proscribed. The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order." Terror seized me, and I ran through the house, out of the north door, and found myself in the midst of a company, some of whom I knew, but I dared not speak a word to them for fear of being betrayed. I tried to seek a retired spot where I might weep and pray without meeting eager, inquisitive eyes wherever I turned.
catlover said:I think it's more like The U.S gov't and not the Jesuits in some of these actions. I mean why would the Jesuits kill JFK, who was a Catholic after all?
Cliff2 said:Some of it is right and some of it is wrong.
This idea that the GC is infected with Jesuits would be very hartd to prove.
I know at times they make the wrong choices but it does not mean they are Jesuits.
Kyran said:I was referring to the articles on the site SDAapostasy.
Especially, General Conference hallowing Sunday worship in a book it published- under SDA Churches and Sunday and It is Written Threatens Lawsuit under SDA threats and persecution. Its just insane if they are correct.
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]IS THE MINISTERIAL ASSOCIATION PROMOTING SUNDAY WORSHIP?
[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]A brother came to our booth during the GC session, exclaiming: "Dr. Bacchiocchi, did you know that the General Conference Ministerial Association is selling a book that promotes Sunday observance?" "It cannot be. You must be joking," I replied. "Come with me," he said. I followed him to the booth of the Ministerial Association, where he picked up a copy of the book Confessions of a Nomad: What We Learned in Sinais Shadow, authored by Carolyn Shealy Self and William L. Self, and asked me to read the following two paragraphs from page 118:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]"The early Christians were obsesses with the fact that they came out of a Jewish background. Yet God did something new and real for them in the Easter experience, so they would have the Sabbath, and they would gather together as the Christian sect on Sunday morning and celebrate the resurrection.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]"But there is a difference between the Sabbath and Sunday. You work until the Sabbath, and then you rest. Sunday is the day that gives you strength to work the six days in front of you. The Sabbath is the end of the week; Sunday is the beginning. The Sabbath is from sundown to sundown, but Sunday is from midnight to midnight. The Sabbath is a day of rest, but Sunday is a day of worship. The Sabbath has a penalty to it, if you break it; Sunday has no penalty, except that you shortchange yourself." [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Similar ideas are expresses on pages 31, 75, and 86 of the book, which is largely a meditation on the Ten Commandments. Overall the book does contain some insightful concepts on the Decalogue, but the authors are grossly mistaken about the origin of Sunday and the relationship between Sabbath and Sunday.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]The early Jewish Christians were not "were obsesses with the fact that they came out of a Jewish background," because they viewed themselves as believing Jews who were "zealous for the law" (Acts 21:20). They did not come together early Sunday morning to celebrate Christs resurrection. There are ample evidences that Jewish Christians continued in the observance of the Sabbath until the fourth centuries, as attested by the Palestinian Historian Epiphanius (A. D. 350). The first reference to early Sunday morning gatherings refers to Gentile Christians and comes to us from I Apology 67 of Justin Martyr, who wrote from Rome, Italy, about A. D. 150. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Twice Justin underlines that the assembly of Gentile Christians took place "on the day of the Sun." "On the day which is called Day of the Sun (te tou eliou legomene hemera) we have a common assembly of all who live in the cities or in the outlying districts, and the memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the Prophets are read, as long as there is time. The Day of the Sun indeed, is the day on which we all hold our common assembly because it is the first day on which God, transforming the darkness and prime matter, created the world; and our Savior Jesus Christ arose from the dead on the same day (I Apology 67:3-5).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Gentile, rather than Jewish Christians, assembled early on the Day of the Sun, to show to the Roman authorities their identification with pagan Sun-worship and their distinction from the Jews, at a time when Judaism in general and Sabbathkeeping in particular were proscribed by Roman law. The first reason given for such Sunday gathering is the creation of the light on the first day of creation week. This question is discussed at great length in my dissertation From Sabbath to Sunday.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Contrary to what the Selfs wrote, Sunday did not originate as a "DAY of worship." Instead, it began as an HOUR of worship. In spite of the efforts made by Constantine (A. D. 321 Sunday Law), church councils, Popes, and Puritans, Sunday has largely remained an hour of worship followed by secular activities. The recognition of this historical reality has led the Catholic Church to introduce the Saturday evening Mass for those who cannot make it to church on Sunday. Over 10,000 Protestant churches have already adopted the same practice, including the Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago, which has two Saturday evening services for those who find it inconvenient to go to church on Sunday.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]The attempt of the Selfs to differentiate between the Sabbath as a day of rest and Sunday as a day of worship, is based on the ignorance of the fact that in the Bible the act of resting on the Sabbath is an act of worship, because the Sabbath rest is not self-centered, but God-centered. We do not rest unto ourselves, but "unto the Lord." We stop our work to allow God to work in us more fully and freely (Heb 4:10). It is the act of resting unto the Lord that makes the worship experience possible. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Much more could be said to expose the senselessness of what the Selfs wrote about the Sabbath, but what concerns me at this juncture is the fact that the book has a 1998 copyright by the Ministerial Association of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Originally the book was published in 1983 by the Peachtree Publishers. Apparently the Ministerial Association received the permission to reprint it, with editorial modifications, because its says: "All copy has been reset and repaginated. Several short portions have been edited to conserve space" (p. 2). [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Frankly, I wish that the Ministerial Association would have edited the portions of the books which promote Sunday observance. At least they could have put a disclaimer in the introduction saying something like this: "The Ministerial Association does not endorse the authors defense of Sunday observance, which is based on mistaken interpretations of biblical and historical data. The decision to sponsor this book rests on the belief that there are sufficient good thoughts in the book to offset the erroneous comments about Sunday observance." [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Undoubtedly the Ministerial Association will let us know the reasons why they have sponsored this devotional book, in spite of its negation of the validity and value of the Sabbath. On my part I will be sure to pass on to you whatever information I receive.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]From[/SIZE][/FONT] http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_50.html
Haggai said:It is not hard to prove at all. The ex-Jesuit priest humself says they have infiltrated the SDA GC and are surprised by their great success. At least here, I might guess over half all SDA's members of the GC do not keep Sabbath anymore. I have "SDA" friends, many of them, who curse, disregard God's law, and every other which sin, yet call themselves SDA's and faithfully attend GC operated churches every week. Don't be nieve. It is better to be sceptical than to be deceived. But in this case it is truth. In fact, a GC leader visited the pope of Rome a while back. Trust no one but God.
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