Is this the norm?

aixia · Dec 28, 2005

I visited my RCA in-laws for Christmas and went to church with them on Christmas Eve. I was shocked at how little attention the Bible was getting in the service. There was of course talk of Jesus' birth, but only 6 lines from the Bible were read, a short passage from Phillipians. The rest of the service was made up of songs sung by either the choir or the congregation, a monologue written by my sister-in-law and performed by a member of the church, and a little skit by some kids about angels talking about the people in the crowd and how much Jesus loves them. The minister spoke briefly about the 6 lines he read, but that was all he said, and those were the only Bible verses read at all. Apparently, the Christmas Day service was similar, only without the monologue and children's skit, but still no reading from the Christmas story.

My question is if this is a typical Reformed Christmas service, and if so, why is there no reading of the actual birth story? Why are there so few readings from the Bible? I asked my husband and he responded that he wasn't sure, but that he thought it was because so many people were reading the birth story at home with their families instead. Is that a good explanation? Thank you so much for any responses.

michael servetus · Dec 28, 2005

aixia said:
I visited my RCA in-laws for Christmas and went to church with them on Christmas Eve. I was shocked at how little attention the Bible was getting in the service. There was of course talk of Jesus' birth, but only 6 lines from the Bible were read, a short passage from Phillipians. The rest of the service was made up of songs sung by either the choir or the congregation, a monologue written by my sister-in-law and performed by a member of the church, and a little skit by some kids about angels talking about the people in the crowd and how much Jesus loves them. The minister spoke briefly about the 6 lines he read, but that was all he said, and those were the only Bible verses read at all. Apparently, the Christmas Day service was similar, only without the monologue and children's skit, but still no reading from the Christmas story.

My question is if this is a typical Reformed Christmas service, and if so, why is there no reading of the actual birth story? Why are there so few readings from the Bible? I asked my husband and he responded that he wasn't sure, but that he thought it was because so many people were reading the birth story at home with their families instead. Is that a good explanation? Thank you so much for any responses.

I can only speak for the PCA, I find this quite odd.

edie19 · Dec 28, 2005

aixia said:
I visited my RCA in-laws for Christmas and went to church with them on Christmas Eve. I was shocked at how little attention the Bible was getting in the service. There was of course talk of Jesus' birth, but only 6 lines from the Bible were read, a short passage from Phillipians. The rest of the service was made up of songs sung by either the choir or the congregation, a monologue written by my sister-in-law and performed by a member of the church, and a little skit by some kids about angels talking about the people in the crowd and how much Jesus loves them. The minister spoke briefly about the 6 lines he read, but that was all he said, and those were the only Bible verses read at all. Apparently, the Christmas Day service was similar, only without the monologue and children's skit, but still no reading from the Christmas story.

My question is if this is a typical Reformed Christmas service, and if so, why is there no reading of the actual birth story? Why are there so few readings from the Bible? I asked my husband and he responded that he wasn't sure, but that he thought it was because so many people were reading the birth story at home with their families instead. Is that a good explanation? Thank you so much for any responses.

I would say, based on my experience, that your experience is not typical.

My church (Reformed Baptist) doesn't follow the lectionary - so we don't neccesarily fit the church calendar. I believe that is fairly common among Reformed churches although I could be wrong. On Christmas our pastor spoke at length (~45 minutes) on Galatians 3:23-4:7 and Luke 2:1-14, what the birth of Christ means to those who follow Him, what it means to be heirs according to God's promise. We have a Scripture reading, a sermon (as above) and a congregational Psalm every service. Our music is always congregational and when the children have a skit it is outside of the regular worship time (we follow the regulative principle of worship).

It has been my experience with Reformed churches that they put much greater emphasis on Scripture, both reading and exposition, than either mainline Protestant or Roman Catholic churches (both of which I've attended regularly in the past).

Hope this answers some of your questions.

edie

HiredGoon · Dec 28, 2005

Since it was an RCA church I'm not surprised. The RCA denomination in general has become quite liberal, though not all churches within the denomination are. Honestly I would not expect a church in a denomination which allows female elders, and does not believe in the inerrency of Scripture, to have a high regard for Scripture and expository preaching. As for your other questions, I would say that there is no typical reformed Christmas service. Some reformed pastors preach on the nativity story, others do not. The sermon at my Presbyterian church was on the geneaology of the Christ in the beginning of Matthew and tied into the meaning of Christmas, but we did not actually read the nativity story. Some conservative Presbyterian churches do not recognize Roman Catholic holidays like Christmas at all, and therfore don't have special Christmas services.

cubanito · Dec 28, 2005

My TV is an RCA. Now I understand why the news reported through it is so liberal.

Seriously though, what does RCA stand for?

IMO the central division in Christianity today is not between Roman Catholics (RC), Eastern Orthodox (EO), Protestants and their various denominations. Rather it is between Bible believers (conservatives) and Bible mythologizers (liberals). Now I do not mean any political labels, please. I'm saying that within each of the 3 groups I've just mentioned, there exists some who deny the verbal inerrant inspiration of the Biblical text, and those that affirm it. I also do not mean that those who deny verbal inspiration are never saved, nor those who affirm it are. Only God makes that call. However, we must judge from the externals as best we can.

I have far more in common with my wife, who is a conservative RC, than with the views of the "mainline" Presbytereans. Mainline Presbyterean health insurance covers abortion for the pastor (who is often a woman). I can't say this for a fact, but it is my understanding you need not believe in the actual biodily resurrection of Christ to be a pastor. That is the why my denomination (PCA) broke away some time ago.

Once you throw out the Scriptures, anything goes.

JR

aixia · Dec 29, 2005

I'm sorry, I figured in a Calvinist forum I could just say RCA and you'd know what I meant. My mistake. RCA stands for Reformed Church of America. This particular church has no females in leadership roles. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I come from the Catholic tradition, so going to any church that doesn't have lots of Bible readings is very strange. (For those who've never been to a Catholic Mass, we have one reading from the OT, one reading from an epistle, one reading from a Gospel, and 6 or 8 psalms, plus most of the things the priest says otherwise is straight out of the Bible.)

I'd love to hear from some RCA members to see what they think. Could this be a regional thing as this was in the southwest Michigan area?

pinkieposies · Dec 29, 2005

aixia said:
I'd love to hear from some RCA members to see what they think. Could this be a regional thing as this was in the southwest Michigan area?

I agree that this seems very unusual for a "Reformed" Church.

It is my understanding that RCA churches are more liberal than other Reformed churches in the first place {I believe that the RCA split from the RCUS over such matters as women in leadership roles and things like that, but I may be wrong}.

I go to a RCUS church and it is very Bible centered {and conservative}. Our Christmas service did not involve a play or skit, but it certainly did involve the reading of the story of Christ's birth.

It may be that it was a regional thing. Sorry I can't be of more help; I don't know if there are even any RCA members in here...

.:Erin:.

rnmomof7 · Dec 29, 2005

aixia said:
I visited my RCA in-laws for Christmas and went to church with them on Christmas Eve. I was shocked at how little attention the Bible was getting in the service. There was of course talk of Jesus' birth, but only 6 lines from the Bible were read, a short passage from Phillipians. The rest of the service was made up of songs sung by either the choir or the congregation, a monologue written by my sister-in-law and performed by a member of the church, and a little skit by some kids about angels talking about the people in the crowd and how much Jesus loves them. The minister spoke briefly about the 6 lines he read, but that was all he said, and those were the only Bible verses read at all. Apparently, the Christmas Day service was similar, only without the monologue and children's skit, but still no reading from the Christmas story.

My question is if this is a typical Reformed Christmas service, and if so, why is there no reading of the actual birth story? Why are there so few readings from the Bible? I asked my husband and he responded that he wasn't sure, but that he thought it was because so many people were reading the birth story at home with their families instead. Is that a good explanation? Thank you so much for any responses.

Our Pastor did not preach on the story of the birth either on the eve or on the day, but rather on supportive scripture that taught the meaning of the incarnation. The text 1 John 3:1 and Zep 3:17 were the primary texts on Christmas day with many supportive texts being used throughout the sermon.

As reformed believers we see the incarnation as the first step to the real meaning of Christmas, the cross. That is generally how Christmas is preached.

On both days the gospel was presented strongly with an emphasis that we are sinners in need of a Savior . I believe Phillipians was used in our church the week before Christmas.

There are babies born every day, the miracle of Christmas is the reason and the cost of the incarnation and the gift to men from that

Belated Merry Christmas

And BTW The story of the incarnation and birth were read in my home to the Children Christmas eve, so your husband is correct there. Presbyterians read the word lots

aixia · Dec 30, 2005

Thank you for your replies. You've all been very helpful. I'd still love to hear more opinions on this if anyone else has anything to add.

Rolf Ernst · Dec 30, 2005

aixia said:
I'm sorry, I figured in a Calvinist forum I could just say RCA and you'd know what I meant. My mistake. RCA stands for Reformed Church of America. This particular church has no females in leadership roles. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I come from the Catholic tradition, so going to any church that doesn't have lots of Bible readings is very strange. (For those who've never been to a Catholic Mass, we have one reading from the OT, one reading from an epistle, one reading from a Gospel, and 6 or 8 psalms, plus most of the things the priest says otherwise is straight out of the Bible.)

I'd love to hear from some RCA members to see what they think. Could this be a regional thing as this was in the southwest Michigan area?

Sorry about the woeful experience you detailed in your OP. There are many congregations which are reformed only in name. Try an OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian), or a Reformed Baptist. A good policy when you are contemplating visiting a new church is to call the pastor in advance. Ask the presbyterian if they hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith or ask the Baptist pastor if they hold to the London Confession of 1689.

I called a Presbyterian pastor once to see if they were truly Reformed. His response to my question was, "What is the WCF?" Truly Reformed churches adhere to the Regulative principle of worship and are very careful that their services have worship as the primary motive for gathering. Accordingly, they focus upon the clear exposition of Scripture, prayer, and congregational hymns which are doctrinally aligned with Scripture.

aixia · Dec 30, 2005

Thank you for that explanation. I myself am not looking for a new denomination, I'm quite happy with being Catholic, but I think I understand what you mean. I suppose it's the same regardless of denomination, you need to be sure that a potential place has the things you expect from a church.

The whole thing strikes me as very strange, especially considering that this particular church is in what appears to be the heartland of the Reform tradition, southwest Michigan. There are more Reform churches in the area than any other denomination. I guess I would have expected the most conservative groups to be there. And with as religious as my in-laws are, I would have expected a completely different service. This seemed like it was just a community-building day instead of a day for worship and celebration.

HiredGoon · Dec 30, 2005

aixia said:
The whole thing strikes me as very strange, especially considering that this particular church is in what appears to be the heartland of the Reform tradition, southwest Michigan. There are more Reform churches in the area than any other denomination. I guess I would have expected the most conservative groups to be there. And with as religious as my in-laws are, I would have expected a completely different service. This seemed like it was just a community-building day instead of a day for worship and celebration.

West Michigan used to be the center of conservative Dutch Reformed Christianity in America, and in some ways it still is. But in the last few decades the two largest Reformed denominations in the area (the RCA and the CRC) have become more liberal. The area still has a Dutch Reformed church on every block, and there are plenty of smaller conservative Reformed denominations and churches, but the biggest denominations seem to be sliding left. I live in West Michigan and am a member of a conservative Presbyterian church. Most of our members are former CRC, RCA and PRC people, and the conservative Presbyterian churches in the area are growing.

Is this the norm?

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