Is this sinful??????

[rahulpatel1985]

Hey, supposing you had an intrusive thought. and you were trying to prove that it wasn't a sin.

and so you thought to yourself - okay, for this thought to have been a sin for real, when you actually held the thought in your mind you must have had an intent like this - and then you thought of the mindset that would have made the thought a sin when you thought it.

all this just to prove that you had not actually committed a sin...

is that a sin in itself???? because, you had simulated the intentional sin and might have even done it ureself by trying to prove that ure original thought wasnt a sin..

: (

 

[kaykay9.0]

I think it's just the process which sometimes happens when you have OCD and start "ruminating" over things.

 

[unkern]

In those cases you need to take those thoughts captive and cast them into the pit before they do turn into sin.

 

[keryakos]

Hey, supposing you had an intrusive thought. and you were trying to prove that it wasn't a sin.

and so you thought to yourself - okay, for this thought to have been a sin for real, when you actually held the thought in your mind you must have had an intent like this - and then you thought of the mindset that would have made the thought a sin when you thought it.

all this just to prove that you had not actually committed a sin...

is that a sin in itself???? because, you had simulated the intentional sin and might have even done it ureself by trying to prove that ure original thought wasnt a sin..

: (

unless you intended to do it yourself i dont think it can be half way done .
besides if you repent of it God will forgive you .

 

[gracealone]

I think it's just the process which sometimes happens when you have OCD and start "ruminating" over things.

EXACTLY!
Great insight KayKay!
Mitzi

 

[gracealone]

In those cases you need to take those thoughts captive and cast them into the pit before they do turn into sin.

Hi Unkern,
I know your comments are well intended but I'd like to offer up some information about OCD if you don't mind.
Thoughts that we Christians need to take captive are those that our old nature encourages. In other words we feel naturally inclined toward them but we know that they are wrong. For instance, when you want very badly to share a tidbit of gossip and you really might like the feeling you get from doing so but you know that it's a sin. Or....kind of like wanting very much to eat "just one more bowl" of death by chocolate icecream even though you know it will be bad for you. Eating it might be pleasureable but you know it's wrong to do so. Another example is when we actually want to stay angry with some one because we feel wronged. We might pet and encourage the anger for awhile because it feels good to stay angry. Those are thoughts that we need to "take captive" instead of acting on them.
But there is a discernable difference between those types of thoughts and the thoughts that plague a person with OCD.
The thoughts of OCD are unwanted and intrusive. They make the OCD'er miserable. More than anything else they just want to unthink the thoughts or erase them from their brain. There's no pleasure in them, no inclination or desire to encourage them. It's the exact opposite. The OCD'er fights against them with every fiber of his/her being. Unfortunately all that fighting only makes the disorder worse.
I only make these comments because a person with religious OCD usually feels like the worst sinner on the planet. It's counterproductive to their healing to suggest that just having the thoughts pop into their brain is an act of willful sin. It only adds to their pain and to their horror that they can't get the thoughts out of their brain.
OCD has to be treated as a real disorder and not a spiritual problem or a person makes little or no headway in learning to manage it.
My comments are not meant to be mean. I only seek to educate people about the difference between real/chosen sinful behaviors and the affliction of OCD. I do this because I care very deeply for the people on this forum and I want more than anything else for them to get the help they need to manage their OCD.
I know that most who post advice on this forum have pure and good motivations for doing so. I don't question that at all and I'm thankful that people care enough to try and help.
God Bless,
Mitzi

 

[gracealone]

unless you intended to do it yourself i dont think it can be half way done .
besides if you repent of it God will forgive you .

Quite True Kerykos!
Intent of the heart is the key. But as you know our OCD thoughts are the opposite of what we truly intend. Having them is not tantamount to acting upon them. That's why they're referred to as unwanted or intrusive.
Mitzi

 

[unkern]

Hi Unkern,
I know your comments are well intended but I'd like to offer up some information about OCD if you don't mind.
Thoughts that we Christians need to take captive are those that our old nature encourages. In other words we feel naturally inclined toward them but we know that they are wrong. For instance, when you want very badly to share a tidbit of gossip and you really might like the feeling you get from doing so but you know that it's a sin. Or....kind of like wanting very much to eat "just one more bowl" of death by chocolate icecream even though you know it will be bad for you. Eating it might be pleasureable but you know it's wrong to do so. Another example is when we actually want to stay angry with some one because we feel wronged. We might pet and encourage the anger for awhile because it feels good to stay angry. Those are thoughts that we need to "take captive" instead of acting on them.
But there is a discernable difference between those types of thoughts and the thoughts that plague a person with OCD.
The thoughts of OCD are unwanted and intrusive. They make the OCD'er miserable. More than anything else they just want to unthink the thoughts or erase them from their brain. There's no pleasure in them, no inclination or desire to encourage them. It's the exact opposite. The OCD'er fights against them with every fiber of his/her being. Unfortunately all that fighting only makes the disorder worse.
I only make these comments because a person with religious OCD usually feels like the worst sinner on the planet. It's counterproductive to their healing to suggest that just having the thoughts pop into their brain is an act of willful sin. It only adds to their pain and to their horror that they can't get the thoughts out of their brain.
OCD has to be treated as a real disorder and not a spiritual problem or a person makes little or no headway in learning to manage it.
My comments are not meant to be mean. I only seek to educate people about the difference between real/chosen sinful behaviors and the affliction of OCD. I do this because I care very deeply for the people on this forum and I want more than anything else for them to get the help they need to manage their OCD.
I know that most who post advice on this forum have pure and good motivations for doing so. I don't question that at all and I'm thankful that people care enough to try and help.
God Bless,
Mitzi

Dont worry bro, I know you mean well. I was diagnosed with OCD and anxiety disorders when I was in high school and I let them have control until a couple years after graduation. The thoughts and actions plagued my life, to the point where I was too clean, or on the negative aspect I couldnt tear myself away from watching hours of porn, I had a massive collection. It was by me putting my foot down, taking the thoughts captive that I won the battle and conquered these.

 

[keryakos]

Quite True Kerykos!
Intent of the heart is the key. But as you know our OCD thoughts are the opposite of what we truly intend. Having them is not tantamount to acting upon them. That's why they're referred to as unwanted or intrusive.
Mitzi

Who was suggesting that having them WAS tantamount to acting upon them .?

 

[kaykay9.0]

Who was suggesting that having them WAS tantamount to acting upon them .?

Well, it has been asked whether these thoughts were sinful which at least implies that some kind of "willful" thought or action could have been involved. I think this is what Mitzi was addressing.

 

[keryakos]

Hey, supposing you had an intrusive thought. and you were trying to prove that it wasn't a sin.

and so you thought to yourself - okay, for this thought to have been a sin for real, when you actually held the thought in your mind you must have had an intent like this - and then you thought of the mindset that would have made the thought a sin when you thought it.

all this just to prove that you had not actually committed a sin...

is that a sin in itself???? because, you had simulated the intentional sin and might have even done it ureself by trying to prove that ure original thought wasnt a sin..

: (

I have had moments where i intentionally imagined someone else like the pharisees in the bible committing the unpardonable and then i wonder did i just commit it by way of imagining that they did it and by virtue i have committed this sin.. but of course it is the intent that matters or else you could commit it by mistake which cannot be done .

 

[keryakos]

Well, it has been asked whether these thoughts were sinful which at least implies that some kind of "willful" thought or action could have been involved. I think this is what Mitzi was addressing.

Again I ask WHO was suggesting that having these thoughts were tantamount to actually doing them ?

 

[gracealone]

Who was suggesting that having them WAS tantamount to acting upon them .?

Hi kerykos,
I was agreeing with you that's why I said, "as you know". I was just adding to what you said, (probably needlessly), that OCD tricks us into feeling that having the thoughts is tantamount to acting on them. That's why we spend so much time fighting them.
In another post it was suggested that OCD thoughts need to be treated just the same as our ordinary sinful thoughts and sinful inclinations by our "taking them captive". I believe that OCD thoughts are nothing like the type of thoughts that we need to take captive because they're unwanted and intrusive. We don't feel inclined to encourage them like we might feel about other thoughts that align themselves with our old nature.
Sorry if I tromped all over your comments. I get diarreah of the keyboard quite often. Forgive me please... OK?
Mitzi

 

[keryakos]

Dont worry bro, I know you mean well. I was diagnosed with OCD and anxiety disorders when I was in high school and I let them have control until a couple years after graduation. The thoughts and actions plagued my life, to the point where I was too clean, or on the negative aspect I couldnt tear myself away from watching hours of porn, I had a massive collection. It was by me putting my foot down, taking the thoughts captive that I won the battle and conquered these.

We cant talk about spiritual warfare on this forum .. But i just want to say praise God for your victory ..I say if Drugs and therapy help thats great
but they are not the only answer . And i think you just proved that .

 

[gracealone]

Well, it has been asked whether these thoughts were sinful which at least implies that some kind of "willful" thought or action could have been involved. I think this is what Mitzi was addressing.

Thank you KayKay. You did a better job of saying what I was trying to say. (sheepish grin.)

 

[keryakos]

Hi kerykos,
I was agreeing with you that's why I said, "as you know". I was just adding to what you said, (probably needlessly), that OCD tricks us into feeling that having the thoughts is tantamount to acting on them. That's why we spend so much time fighting them.
In another post it was suggested that OCD thoughts need to be treated just the same as our ordinary sinful thoughts and sinful inclinations by our "taking them captive". I believe that OCD thoughts are nothing like the type of thoughts that we need to take captive because they're unwanted and intrusive. We don't feel inclined to encourage them like we might feel about other thoughts that align themselves with our old nature.
Sorry if I tromped all over your comments. I get diarreah of the keyboard quite often. Forgive me please... OK?
Mitzi

You didnt tromp all over my comments and i dont care if you did ..It just seemed like you were suggesting that I was saying something that i wasn't
.
Sorry its just hard to read intent sometimes online . I guess you feel my frustration in having to clarify so much it isnt just here i get misunderstood allot in other places on the net and i also misunderstand ..anyway sorry for the misunderstanding on my part .. we are cool ..

 

[gracealone]

We cant talk about spiritual warfare on this forum .. But i just want to say praise God for your victory ..I say if Drugs and therapy help thats great
but they are not the only answer . And i think you just proved that .

I agree that if you mean taking an OCD thought "captive" means choosing to not let it drive us into compulsive, argumentative rumination. But if we equate an unwanted/intrusive OCD thought with willful/chosen sinful thoughts and inclinations than we might fall into the trap of the compulsive side of the disorder.
My history of OCD which spans more than 29 years includes getting well without drugs and without therapy and getting well with drugs and with therapy. So I'm an advocate of both. The latter proved to bring my chemistry into balance a whole lot quicker than the first so I chose that route later in life when I experienced another bad flare. In both of these scenario's the "spiritual warfare" that I fought was one of learning, (and I'm still learning),the long and hard lesson that "God's Grace is sufficient for me", both in the midst of my affliction of OCD and out of it. Also that all affliction in the life of a Christian is purposeful - even and including OCD.
Mitzi

 

[gracealone]

You didnt tromp all over my comments and i dont care if you did ..It just seemed like you were suggesting that I was saying something that i wasn't
.
Sorry its just hard to read intent sometimes online . I guess you feel my frustration in having to clarify so much it isnt just here i get misunderstood allot in other places on the net and i also misunderstand ..anyway sorry for the misunderstanding on my part .. we are cool ..

I'm glad we're "cool" Keryakos, although I'm about as uncool as anyone you'll ever meet.
I love your input on the forum.
I'm misunderstood all the time on here, but that's OK. I'm not here to get any one to like me. I'm here hoping that just one thing that has helped me might help someone else who is in the midst of the tremendous suffering this disorder causes.
Hey ... thanks for your patience with me though. I appreciate it.
Mitzi

 

[keryakos]

I agree that if you mean taking an OCD thought "captive" means choosing to not let it drive us into compulsive, argumentative rumination. But if we equate an unwanted/intrusive OCD thought with willful/chosen sinful thoughts and inclinations than we might fall into the trap of the compulsive side of the disorder.
My history of OCD which spans more than 29 years includes getting well without drugs and without therapy and getting well with drugs and with therapy. So I'm an advocate of both. The latter proved to bring my chemistry into balance a whole lot quicker than the first so I chose that route later in life when I experienced another bad flare. In both of these scenario's the "spiritual warfare" that I fought was one of learning, (and I'm still learning),the long and hard lesson that "God's Grace is sufficient for me", both in the midst of my affliction of OCD and out of it. Also that all affliction in the life of a Christian is purposeful - even and including OCD.
Mitzi

We agree more than we disagree here ..and your experience is both valid and helpful when shared with others i just want to acknowledge that . You are not narrow minded like some people are and you have seen this thing from both sides of the fence i would say . So you know very well what you are talking about .

Mitzi no one is equating willful sin with OCD here not to my knowledge any way . ..they are completely opposite .
What im trying to say is is that at the end of the day what matters in regards to treatment is what works for you individually ..For example Sea Joy has stated that drugs and therapy are the only KNOWN ways to recover ..NOT SO .. Still others say that you have to combat this from a spiritual perspective alone ..NOT SO .. I say do both .. Why not strike a balance in treatment approach's .. but you must do what works for you
because after all even though we have very similar experiences shockingly so ill say ..we are individuals on individual journeys ..

 

[keryakos]

I'm glad we're "cool" Keryakos, although I'm about as uncool as anyone you'll ever meet.
I love your input on the forum.
I'm misunderstood all the time on here, but that's OK. I'm not here to get any one to like me. I'm here hoping that just one thing that has helped me might help someone else who is in the midst of the tremendous suffering this disorder causes.
Hey ... thanks for your patience with me though. I appreciate it.
Mitzi

Thanks for your patience with me too.

I say you are cool ..And I LIKE YOU

SO DEAL WITH IT HAHAHAHA.

I needed that ...see you help people when you dont even try .. you are wonder woman without the provacative apparel .