Is this question too hard too answer?

[BlackSabb]

Hi everyone. I was responding to a thread in the 'Spirit-filled/Charismatic' section of CF regarding an allegation of a particular church that covered up for a husband accused of wife beating.

A female poster questioned the whole doctrine of "submission" unto husbands by wives, and blamed that partly for the culture of spousal abuse. I too questioned this doctrine as I've come across various Christians over the years that were very fervent believers but dismissed the writings of Paul as unorthodox and not in line with the rest of the epistles and Jesus.

I mentioned that Paul introduced some truly unique teachings nowhere else to be found in scripture, some of which could be interpreted as oddball. Besides the teachings of submission, Paul stated that men are to have their hair short and cut, women are to have their women long and uncut, women are not to be ministering in church and in fact, women are to be silent completely in the church with heads covered. I find these last couple of instructions to be of course really "out there" to be honest.

One poster responded to me and said:

Umm...do you know the submission thing goes back to Genesis? Perhaps don't be too quick to dismiss it, unless you just want to ignore God creating everything.

I responded with this:

Fine then. Why do you "ignore" the rest of Paul's writings and pick and choose what parts of his teachings to obey? Do you go to a church where women's heads are covered, where they sit and are completely silent? If not, why not? Are these instructions of Paul's not as valid as his instructions on submission?

My point was why is everyone so fervently a supporter of Paul's unique teaching of submission whilst not supporting his other teachings on women? Those who most believe in all this supposedly Biblical "submission" don't necessarily believe that men should have short hair and women should have long hair, don't believe in women sitting in church silently and don't believe in women's heads being covered. Heck, Paul's teachings are so flagrantly violated that women even teach and preach in churches.
Unsurprisingsly, heaps of people responded to me after my post-and all ignored me and responed to other elements of the thread. Obviously, my question was too hard.

Or was it? Can anyone tell me Biblically why we should adhere to this "submission" doctrine whilst ignoring the rest of Paul's instructions regarding the roles of women? Is it not reasonable to say that if you believe in submission, then women should not cut their hair, men should, and that women should have their heads covered, be silent in churches and certainly not teach or preach?

 

[meliagaunt]

A very interesting question, and I don't think I have a good response.

When I was preparing for marriage I asked a very wise nun I knew about this. She said she thought both parties needed to submit to the greater good of the marriage.

As far as women speaking in church and not having their hair covered is concerned, I think you've hit the nail on the head when you write about the danger of picking and choosing passages. For me though, I have concluded that since I can't accept all the injunctions of scripture (e.g lots of those in Leviticus and Numbers) I have to accept that the Bible is not a simple law book which contains easy instructions for every occasion. It is the record of faith of fallible, sinful human beings, including St Paul, and amazingly, God manages to inspire us through it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I tend to interpret those as cultural based commandments .

the whole long hair power symbol thing was an angel preference . not sure why it made it into the bible . but it's there .

 

[jpcedotal]

hmmm...good thread with a very good question.

For now, I would only like to address the "wife submission" part. In order to fully understand what Paul meant, we must not leave out the husband's role in this. These are not separate. What Paul is trying to explain is what a Christian marriage should be, and the last time I checked, there is a husband AND and wife.

Eph 5:22 & 25
(22) Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The word submit has become so negative that we cannot see the good it creates. Jesus submitted to the world in order to allow the world, US, to hang him on a Cross, to crucify Him in order for us to be pure in His Father's eyes.

A husband is to sacrifice his life, his living, his everything for his wife, just as Jesus sacrificed His life for us (the church). So here is the question to the wives: If your husband devoted and sacrificed his entire life to your happiness, your safety, your love of him...would it really be that hard to submit to him, knowing that everything he does...he has you in mind?

The Christian marriage reflects our Lord Jesus Christ. The husband SACRIFICES his everything, the wife SUBMITS herself to this sacrifice...BOTH of these are actions Jesus did. Why did He do this? Why give up His own individuality, His own wants and desires for someone else?

LOVE, baby, LOVE

So what to do if the husband isn't living up to his end of the bargain? Love him anyway, submit to him anyway, and if he is a Christian, the Holy Spirit will show him the way he should be as a loving, Christian husband. What if the wife is taking advantage of the husband's sacrifices? Love her anyway, sacrifice to her anyway, and if she is Christian, she will come around.

A secular marriage contains two individuals, a Christian one does not. A man and wife become one flesh. This is what Paul is trying to explain to us, not that a woman is lower than man but that two become one and this the role of each in a Christian marriage....sacrificing and submitting to each other out of love.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The Word of God is spiritual, but the mind of man is carnal. That is why man cannot understand those spiritual ordinances Paul was speaking of. Paul was not talking about gender when he spoke of the man and woman, he was talking about a spiritual level of authority given to the first born.

Remember God created man first, then out of the man came woman. Just as the Jew came first, and then the Gentile generation. To understand these deep things, one must be a spiritual man of God, and not a woman. We know this to be true because Paul also said that in Christ, there is neither male nor female. So if there is no more a natural gender difference, then the meaning is truly spiritual; and can only be spiritually discerned.

 

[jpcedotal]

If both partners put the other one above him/herself, then 99.99999% of marriages would still be marriages.

Cheating is selfish, abuse is selfish, greed is selfish, trying to remain an individual within a marriage is selfish.

Marriages fail because one or both partners put self above their partner...

People go to Hell because they will not give up self for Jesus Christ...

It is the exact same something that will cause our world to implode...until Christ returns.

 

[Octorock]

To answer the ops question, everyone "picks an chooses" what they obey from the Bible, even those who are always accusing everyone else of "picking and choosing". While they preach submission to husbands, theyre ignoring the rule for women's heads being covered. While they're preaching against gay people, there ignoring the command to execute them. Why theyre preaching that lust = adultery, they're ignoring the command for rapists to marry their victims. While there preaching the separation of sheep and goats, theyre ignoring the commands to love their neighbors and to give all of their wealth to the poor.

 

[paintedgoldfish]

Do you have bible verses for those?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

To answer the ops question, everyone "picks an chooses" what they obey from the Bible, even those who are always accusing everyone else of "picking and choosing". While they preach submission to husbands, theyre ignoring the rule for women's heads being covered. While they're preaching against gay people, there ignoring the command to execute them. Why theyre preaching that lust = adultery, they're ignoring the command for rapists to marry their victims. While there preaching the separation of sheep and goats, theyre ignoring the commands to love their neighbors and to give all of their wealth to the poor.

Do you have bible verses for those?

Wives Submit to Husbands Ephesians 5:21-23

Head Covering 1 Corinthians 11:1-10

"10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. "

Cut off from the people Leviticus 18:16-30 (v 22,30) it doesn't say to execute them here but just that they're cut off from the people . maybe the stoning command is somewhere else .

Lust = Adultery (see above context of leviticus and Matthew 5:28)

Rapists Marry Victims (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

Separation of the Sheep and Goats Matthew 25:31-46

Love Neighbour as Self Mark 12:30-31

Give all you have to the poor Mark 10:18-22

 

[paintedgoldfish]

thank you

 

[meliagaunt]

Cut off from the people Leviticus 18:16-30 (v 22,30) it doesn't say to execute them here but just that they're cut off from the people . maybe the stoning command is somewhere else .

Leviticus 20:10 perhaps?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

thank you

Welcome

Leviticus 20:10 perhaps?

I suppose by extension of "class of sin" it may have been interpreted that way . this one focuses on adultery in particular .

 

[meliagaunt]

Sorry: Leviticus 20:13

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sorry: Leviticus 20:13

oh yeah it was gruesome back then .

i woulda been stoned for being a medium i think .

 

[meliagaunt]

They'll stone you when you're walking on the street
They'll stone you when you're trying to keep your seat
They'll stone you when your walking on the floor
They'll stone you when your walking to the door...

 

[Tinker Grey]

They'll stone you when you're walking on the street
They'll stone you when you're trying to keep your seat
They'll stone you when your walking on the floor
They'll stone you when your walking to the door...

It was Robert Zimmerman's 70th Birthday yesterday.

 

[meliagaunt]

It was Robert Zimmerman's 70th Birthday yesterday.

Yep. Time to fire up Blood on the Tracks in celebration, followed by Time Out Of Mind.

Sorry, off topic.

 

[Servant.DujmovJr]

Hi everyone. I was responding to a thread in the 'Spirit-filled/Charismatic' section of CF regarding an allegation of a particular church that covered up for a husband accused of wife beating.

There is no excuse for wife beating, no matter what people think Paul meant or didn't mean.

I mentioned that Paul introduced some truly unique teachings nowhere else to be found in scripture, some of which could be interpreted as oddball. Besides the teachings of submission, Paul stated that men are to have their hair short and cut, women are to have their women long and uncut, women are not to be ministering in church and in fact, women are to be silent completely in the church with heads covered. I find these last couple of instructions to be of course really "out there" to be honest.

To understand what someone is saying you must first undersatnd where they are saying it from. Someone's "point of view" makes their perspective their own unique view. First you must consiser the position from which they are seeing things.

Paul did not say that men should have short hair. Paul said that men should not wear their hair as a woman.
Corinth was a port city. There were many prostitutes working in Corinth. At that time there were many "Gay, Lady/Boys" converting to christianity. There were coming to churh still ordaining there hair as women. To have long hair is one thing; to ordain the hair (ornaments and such) as a woman does is another thing all together. This is what Paul was speaking of when he said that men should not wear their hair "as a woman". People misinterpet that to; men should have short hair. That is not what Paul said.

....Can anyone tell me Biblically why we should adhere to this "submission" doctrine whilst ignoring the rest of Paul's instructions regarding the roles of women? Is it not reasonable to say that if you believe in submission, then women should not cut their hair, men should, and that women should have their heads covered, be silent in churches and certainly not teach or preach?

Paul said that women should submit to their husbands. However, Paul also said that men should love their wives as they love themselves. If you meditate on that you will see that a wife who submits to a husband who; respects her, honors her and cherishes her, has no fear of being mistreated, abused or made to be second in life. A man who loves his wife as he loves himself is a man who places his wife above him.

There is no where in scripture where Paul says that women should "not" cut their hair. Coverings are a matter of respect; respect for the Lord and respect for themselves. Too many women who claim to be christians dress far too provocitavilly to be considered "respectful".
On a personal note; I think women should have more compassion on men and not dress "sexy"; men's hearts aren't strong enough to endure the tempations of a woman's beauty

As far as women being silent in the church; it is a difficult one to accept. However, in a family the father is seen as the leader. If the father does his job rightfully and dutifully he will strive to understand the Word of God so that he can teach his family with greater understanding. This kind of system is beneficial to a family. It keeps them united and assures good quality time together.
Hope that I have helped to answer the question or questions

Peace unto you
Steve

 

[jlujan69]

Thank you, Steve, for bringing this thread back around.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

even more so . husbands to love wives as "christ loved the church" i.e. giving his life for it .