Is this lying?

[angrySCORCH62]

Is their a difference between lying and not telling in general, like if someone asked you a question directly you would tell the truth but if no one asks you then you don't say.

As an example that I have been thinking about: sometimes before I got to bed I will turn down my uncles TV in the next room to no volume (I leave mine on for something to watch as I go to sleep but the sound isn't as high as it is during the day). Now last night I tuned his volume down and he was still awake and said "I didn't touch it" (or something similar) to himself.

Now if he asked me if I was turning down his TV I would so yes but is it considered lying to not bring it up (feel like it would be awkward to just bring it up out of nowhere). I'm not really that worried about this but I am curious as to what is considered to be lying or just not telling.



Thank you

 

[Peripatetic]

There are sins of commission (doing the wrong thing) and sins of omission (not doing the right thing).

Telling a lie is usually a sin of commission. Withholding the truth may be a sin of omission, but not always. It depends on the circumstances. Withholding the truth can be sinful and cause serious harm. On the other hand, telling the truth can be a sin when staying quiet is the best choice (ie. knowing ugly gossip about someone). In most cases, I think we know deep down whether withholding the truth is sinful or not.

 

[angrySCORCH62]

That makes a lot of sense mate, is their anywhere in the bible where it says not speaking up can sometimes be the best option?

 

[hedrick]

Sure, but it depends upon the situation and your relationship. There are situations where you have a responsibility to tell someone something. It may be something that need to know or at least something that will benefit them, or you may be accountable to them and are obligated to tell them certain things. But you certainly can't tell everyone everything.

I'm not sure I'm following your description enough to know whether this was a situation where you owed him that particular piece of information. If I'm following it, he was implying that you turned it down, because he knew he didn't, and probably neither of you believe that gremlins are roaming your house changing TV volumes. I don't see any obligation there to confirm it. If you think he's implying that it's a problem, however, you might want to say "I often turn down your TV when I'm going to bed. Is that a problem?" But he's an adult. He can bring the subject up if he cares about it. I think it's optional unless talking about something is likely to benefit someone or you have an explicit or implicit obligation.

I doubt this example was worth the amount of time it took either of us to type this, but I understand you're concerned with the general ethical question.

The most difficult problems tend to be when something may be unpleasant or result in unpleasant consequences such as punishment. E.g. you committed a crime. Do you turn yourself in? You cheated on a spouse. Do you tell them? For my 7th and 8th grade Sunday School kids, when do you tell your parents something you did? Most people here seem to think it's not an obligation to turn yourself in to the police, but they have normally advised people to tell a spouse that they've cheated. I think it depends upon the reasonable expectation of the particular relationship. Probably most parents don't want to know every time a kid has done anything questionable, but if they're falling into a pattern that will have significant effects, they want to know.

In relationships where someone has an obligation like that, it's probably best to talk about it, so both people know what the expectations are. In setting up those expectations I would try to avoid putting someone in a position where they are obligated to do something that I know they probably won't. E.g. it's probably a mistake for a parent to expect a kid to report everything they do that might be considered wrong and then punish them harshly for what they report. You're inviting them to fall into a pattern of making excuses to themselves and not talking to you. But there are some things you really do need to know.

There are, of course, situations where you have an obligation not to speak, e.g. in protecting a confidence or information that might damage someone else. In those cases it's best just to avoid speaking, but there are certainly situations where you could be required to lie to protect someone else. (The classic situation: In WW II Germany you're hiding a Jewish family.) This can also depend upon age. A child may not have enough verbal skill to avoid telling something, and may lie in a situation where an adult could evade.

 

[angrySCORCH62]

Sure, but it depends upon the situation and your relationship. There are situations where you have a responsibility to tell someone something. It may be something that need to know or at least something that will benefit them, or you may be accountable to them and are obligated to tell them certain things. But you certainly can't tell everyone everything.

I'm not sure I'm following your description enough to know whether this was a situation where you owed him that particular piece of information. If I'm following it, he was implying that you turned it down, because he knew he didn't, and probably neither of you believe that gremlins are roaming your house changing TV volumes. I don't see any obligation there to confirm it. If you think he's implying that it's a problem, however, you might want to say "I often turn down your TV when I'm going to bed. Is that a problem?" But he's an adult. He can bring the subject up if he cares about it. I think it's optional unless talking about something is likely to benefit someone or you have an explicit or implicit obligation.

I doubt this example was worth the amount of time it took either of us to type this, but I understand you're concerned with the general ethical question.

The most difficult problems tend to be when something may be unpleasant or result in unpleasant consequences such as punishment. E.g. you committed a crime. Do you turn yourself in? You cheated on a spouse. Do you tell them? For my 7th and 8th grade Sunday School kids, when do you tell your parents something you did? Most people here seem to think it's not an obligation to turn yourself in to the police, but they have normally advised people to tell a spouse that they've cheated. I think it depends upon the reasonable expectation of the particular relationship. Probably most parents don't want to know every time a kid has done anything questionable, but if they're falling into a pattern that will have significant effects, they want to know.

In relationships where someone has an obligation like that, it's probably best to talk about it, so both people know what the expectations are. In setting up those expectations I would try to avoid putting someone in a position where they are obligated to do something that I know they probably won't. E.g. it's probably a mistake for a parent to expect a kid to report everything they do that might be considered wrong and then punish them harshly for what they report. You're inviting them to fall into a pattern of making excuses to themselves and not talking to you. But there are some things you really do need to know.

There are, of course, situations where you have an obligation not to speak, e.g. in protecting a confidence or information that might damage someone else. In those cases it's best just to avoid speaking, but there are certainly situations where you could be required to lie to protect someone else. (The classic situation: In WW II Germany you're hiding a Jewish family.) This can also depend upon age. A child may not have enough verbal skill to avoid telling something, and may lie in a situation where an adult could evade.

Thanks mate you make a lot of sense and I agree that the specific example is probably not worth the time to answer (I do tend to worry about a lot of things that I probably don't have to), but I think the overall theme is of some importance as I think their will be times when it might be embarrassing or shameful to tell someone something when they never ask about it, and I was wondering if never bringing it up was an option (though that feels like a dirty trick).

I'm not sure I'm following your description enough to know whether this was a situation where you owed him that particular piece of information. If I'm following it, he was implying that you turned it down, because he knew he didn't, and probably neither of you believe that gremlins are roaming your house changing TV volumes. I don't see any obligation there to confirm it. If you think he's implying that it's a problem, however, you might want to say "I often turn down your TV when I'm going to bed. Is that a problem?" But he's an adult. He can bring the subject up if he cares about it.

I don't think he knew it was me, I think he was just confused that the TV volume went down, though maybe he did know it was me as I was not completely silent getting back to my bedroom.

Again thanks mate for you opinion

 

[manitouscott]

Hypothetical:
My wife cheats on me. I notice some socks that aren't mine in the closet and point them out, asking how they got there. She doesn't say anything.
Has she been honest?

 

[hedrick]

You asked the Biblical basis. I don't see a detailed treatment in Scripture. Jesus treats lying in Mat 5, which is his commentary on the 2nd table of the Law. To me the implication of his treatment is that we shouldn't think legalistically but rather should look at the intent of people's behavior. Following that example, Christian ethics generally understands the 10 commandments positively, so for example the law against murder because an obligation to care about people's life and well-being. For a classical Protestant example, see the Westminster Catechism's treatment of the commandments.

Thus the commandment against false witness is generally understood as saying that we owe others the truth. However no one thinks this obligation is absolute. There are situations where telling the truth would be harmful. Hence we have to look at what you owe someone. At that point we have a divergence. Different ethical traditions treat this question differently. My suggestion is that we look at the primary question is the nature of our relationship with the other person, and either an explicit understanding with them (e.g. a school with an honor code or a professional with a professional code of conduct) or what a reasonable person would understand as the normal expectation. Our relationship with the person about whom we are speaking also counts, as there are relationships where we owe someone confidentiality (e.g. lawyer-client). Finally, the situation can impose an obligation (the Nazi looking for Jews we have hidden, though that could also be analyzed in terms of our relationships to the people we are hiding and the Nazi authorities).

Of course your initial question was about not speaking. Christian ethics does tend to see a distinction between acting and not acting. That is, you have an obligation not to harm anyone by your actions. You don't have an unlimited obligation to help everyone in the world to a maximum extent, or you'd never be able to do anything else. So the rules about lying tend to be stricter than the rules about not speaking the truth.

The Christian tradition generally has a strong expectation that we won't lie, unless there is a clear obligation that would be violated by telling the truth. However, as someone has pointed out, there are "sins of omission." There are clearly situations where not saying something can be just as misleading as lying, and following Jesus' principles you might treat staying silent in such a situation as a lie. But normally there's more flexibility about not speaking than about lying. Hence my suggestion to look at what a reasonable person would expect given your relationships and the situation.

 

[angrySCORCH62]

Thanks Hedrick mate you make a lot of sense.

 

[hedrick]

One important real example of this is in medicine. Most people feel there's a difference between killing someone and letting them die. Hence generally euthanasia is considered immoral by Christians. But in some situations patients will have a "do not resuscitate" or "no extreme measures" directive. At times this will let a patient die who wouldn't otherwise. (Normally it's in a situation where the patient would be only technically alive.)

 

[salida]

If you don't answer, its not lying. What if someone asks you do i look ugly? Saying yes would be insulting and hurt them. Tell them to add more blush; be positive.

 

[blah1234]

lying is deceit. was deceit a part of the situation? a person can be deceitful in silence. look into your heart and look for deceit. if it is there then there is lie.