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Is this love?

ThatRobGuy

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I have an idea for something I want to do and I would like to know if this is a true representation of love...

I would like to have a bunch of kids with the soul purpose of loving me and accepting my ideals. All throughout their lives, I will have them give me 10% of their income and actively recruit others to my way of thinking. I will also expect them to read my book which I have written to outline all of my ideals.

If they do all of these things, I will buy them a big house and give them enough money for early retirement so they can have an existence of leisure without a care in the world...

However, if they don't do this, I will burn them alive and torture them. I will tell everyone that it's not the way I wanted it to go down and that I am the one who's being hurt by this.

So...is this a fair situation and an accurate representation of the love that a parent should have for their child?

If no, tell my why???
 

Axioma

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You're forgetting the bit where your children will occasionally murder each other and you, despite being perfectly capable of stepping in and stopping Timmy from holding Francesca's head in the tub until she drowns, will stand by and watch him do it because you respect his free will.
 
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PastorJim

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I have an idea for something I want to do and I would like to know if this is a true representation of love...

I would like to have a bunch of kids with the soul purpose of loving me and accepting my ideals. All throughout their lives, I will have them give me 10% of their income and actively recruit others to my way of thinking. I will also expect them to read my book which I have written to outline all of my ideals.

If they do all of these things, I will buy them a big house and give them enough money for early retirement so they can have an existence of leisure without a care in the world...

However, if they don't do this, I will burn them alive and torture them. I will tell everyone that it's not the way I wanted it to go down and that I am the one who's being hurt by this.

So...is this a fair situation and an accurate representation of the love that a parent should have for their child?

If no, tell my why???

Obviously, you're making an analogy with Christianity, but what you're describing isn't what Christianity teaches.

First, you refered to the 10% tithe. That was something that was given specifically to the Jews under the Old Covenant for the operation of the temple and the Levitical priesthood.

Because that system has been abolished, the 10% tithe is no longer in effect.

You say that we must "recruit others to [your] was of thinking", but the Bible never says anything like that.

You say that we must also read the Bible.

If we do these things, you claim, God will reward us and I'm assuming that you're talking about Heaven. But that simply isn't what Christianity teaches.

To the contrary, the Bible is very clear that our works cannot save us.

Then, you say that if we don't do these things, we will go to Hell. Again, that isn't what the Bible teaches.

Jesus made it very clear that men go to Hell as a punishment for their sins, not for not fulfilling a works-righteousness requirement.
 
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Beanieboy

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I have an idea for something I want to do and I would like to know if this is a true representation of love...

I would like to have a bunch of kids with the soul purpose of loving me and accepting my ideals. All throughout their lives, I will have them give me 10% of their income and actively recruit others to my way of thinking. I will also expect them to read my book which I have written to outline all of my ideals.

If they do all of these things, I will buy them a big house and give them enough money for early retirement so they can have an existence of leisure without a care in the world...

However, if they don't do this, I will burn them alive and torture them. I will tell everyone that it's not the way I wanted it to go down and that I am the one who's being hurt by this.

So...is this a fair situation and an accurate representation of the love that a parent should have for their child?

If no, tell my why???

Is this love? No. It's a business transaction. You do what I say, and I pay you. You don't do what I say, and I torture you. It is a contract of diress, like saying, "If you love me, I will give you your heart's desire. If you don't, I will shoot you in the head. But I've given you an out, a free gift to save your life. Please don't make me shoot you!"

Anyone who is willing to shoot you doesn't love you.

This is the unfortunate Ogre God presented in Modern Day Christianity. It believe that it is the ultimate sacrelige of what God is. God is nothing like that, but the saved, happy with their own salvation, callously shrug and say, "ah, well. You had your chance. I'm going to heaven..." And you deserve it, don't you? I mean, look how good you are! You aren't like "thoooooose people", who lie, and steal, and take drugs, or have sex, or who knows what else. You practically deserve heaven. I mean, seriously, do you want to live in heaven with homosexual? Eeewwww.

Then they scratch their heads, not understanding why we don't want to join their Whites Only golf club, where it's exclusive, so you feel special.

My brother was a former pastor, and at my father's funeral, we were talking one night. I said, "I don't really think God cares much at all about sin. If all you can say is, "Look at me! I don't steal or kill people", you are pretty pathetic. What God is concerned about is us loving each other, as he loves us, and in so, we are loving God (whenever you have done this for the least of these, you have done the same to me.) What are you doing to help others? To comfort others? To sacrifice your time, or money, or possessions, to help another desparately in need? If we all loved our neighbor as ourselves, the world would be much, much different. But we unfortunately are selfish. Our greed creates polution, strife, anger, and frustration, and strangle our love, like the seed in the rocky ground. Our ego strangles our humility, and exhalts us, making us feel good, but leaving others angered by being put down. We have the capability of traveling into space, or finding cures for disease, and the capability for splitting atoms and destroying the world. God loves us, so that we will love others, and create heaven on Earth. It's that simple, but so simple, that no one understands it. They make it compicated, with theology, and rules, and ritual, and get so tangled up in the manmade ways, convinced that they have found the fine print that God demands, when it is quite the opposite. They show a God that demands blood, a sinless virgin human sacrifice, to appease his anger, and will even watch The Passion, saying, "Wow, Jesus really suffered. Now I know how much he loves us," as if giving one's life isn't enough unless there is excrutiating pain involved. At that is man's understanding. Man killed Christ, not God. If that is all God wanted, he would have led Herod to baby Jesus, and killed him right there, and be done with it. But Jesus forgave sin prior to his crucifixtion. He forgave the adulterous. He forgave the prostitute. He forgave the man whom he healed. And he told us to forgive each other, to not demand a revenge price, but to forgive, and to do so endlessly.

My brother said, "You know, this is the way I have come to look at it, after all my schooling, and all my life experience. God loved us. Man disobeyed, and didn't love God back. God continued to love us, and sent Jesus to teach us what that love means. And man rejected Jesus, and killed him. God continued to love us, and keeps loving us, until we understand what love really is, and love one another as he loved us.

It was oddly in line with what I was saying. God doesn't "demand" our worship. That is a manmade idea, of bowing to kings, or laying hands on cardboard cutouts of Bush. Rather, I would liken it to this: My partner and I adopt a child who came from a pretty terrible home. He's angry, he's learned to trust no one, learned to look out only for himself, because no one else will. My partner and I take him in. We make him food. We buy him clothes. He resents us, hating having "My Two Dads," and in return, we simply love him. We listen to some of the times when he was emotionally hurt, and do what we can to comfort him. Feeling vulnerable, he pulls away. He says he hates me. And I understand, and love him in return. He grows to trust us, to like us, but this is something that he isn't used to. Everyone he has ever trusted has betrayed him, so he acts out. I come home, and he has broken a window, even gloats about it. He would rather see the rejection coming, than inadvertantly find himself kicked out of the house one day. I tell him that it makes me feel upset, and I call the window repair. I may tell him that he is grounded. He is confused, because I don't want to ship him off, like he has been by every other foster family. He starts to realize that we love him unconditionally. He stops acting out. He starts to trust. He starts to reach out, and to create, instead of destroy, and sees that the love is always constant, always there, has no sudden expiration date. And one day, he realizes that he loves us, too. Like friends, we don't demand that love, but it just naturally flows out from one another, fully reciprocal. Soon, he is treating others in the name of love, and healing, and healing the others by his words, thoughts and actions. They, in turn, treat others in kind, and he has spread love the way the sun lights up the morning. When they stop to be greatful, and thank him for what he has done, he smiles and says, "Don't mention it. It was nothing." He becomes a new creation, one his former family probably wouldn't even recognize. He "tithes" 10%, not to fill the temple with gold - what does God need gold for? - but to give to others in need - charities, the hungry, the sick.

Do I demand for his love, demand that he sit at my feet and tell me I'm the Man? Of course not. It isn't self love. I love him, and I am happy only when the love that I give him is instilled in him, able to love others. That is my hope, and what I want in him.

And that's all it is.
 
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Beanieboy

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To the contrary, the Bible is very clear that our works cannot save us.

Then, you say that if we don't do these things, we will go to Hell. Again, that isn't what the Bible teaches.

Mathew 25

31"But when (Y)the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (Z)He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be (AA)gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, (AB)as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

33and He will put the sheep (AC)on His right, and the goats (AD)on the left.

34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, (AE)inherit the kingdom prepared for you (AF)from the foundation of the world.

35'For (AG)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (AH)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

36(AI)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (AJ)visited Me; (AK)I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

40"(AL)The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, (AM)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, '(AN)Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (AO)eternal fire which has been prepared for (AP)the devil and his angels;

42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46"These will go away into (AQ)eternal punishment, but the righteous into (AR)eternal life."

 
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PastorJim

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Mathew 25

31"But when (Y)the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then (Z)He will sit on His glorious throne.
32"All the nations will be (AA)gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, (AB)as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

33and He will put the sheep (AC)on His right, and the goats (AD)on the left.

34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, (AE)inherit the kingdom prepared for you (AF)from the foundation of the world.

35'For (AG)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (AH)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

36(AI)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (AJ)visited Me; (AK)I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

40"(AL)The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, (AM)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, '(AN)Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (AO)eternal fire which has been prepared for (AP)the devil and his angels;

42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46"These will go away into (AQ)eternal punishment, but the righteous into (AR)eternal life."

Right. And notice that Jesus has already declared them saved and unsaved before even discussing their works.

Throughout the scriptures, "sheep" are used to refer to those who are saved, while "goats" are used to refer to the unsaved.

Jesus is not declaring them to be sheep or goats based on their works, but simply comparing the works of those who have already been declared sheep and goats.
 
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TooCurious

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Right. And notice that Jesus has already declared them saved and unsaved before even discussing their works.

Throughout the scriptures, "sheep" are used to refer to those who are saved, while "goats" are used to refer to the unsaved.

Jesus is not declaring them to be sheep or goats based on their works, but simply comparing the works of those who have already been declared sheep and goats.

It looks to me like Jesus is explaining why the people in one group are "sheep" and the people in the other group are "goats." If he isn't explaining, it seems a rather pointless comparison to make for two groups of people who very clearly have more weighty matters on their minds (like going to heaven and hell, respectively).
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Right. And notice that Jesus has already declared them saved and unsaved before even discussing their works.

Throughout the scriptures, "sheep" are used to refer to those who are saved, while "goats" are used to refer to the unsaved.

Jesus is not declaring them to be sheep or goats based on their works, but simply comparing the works of those who have already been declared sheep and goats.

If the works don't mean anything, why bother using them as a point of reference??
 
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Beanieboy

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It looks to me like Jesus is explaining why the people in one group are "sheep" and the people in the other group are "goats." If he isn't explaining, it seems a rather pointless comparison to make for two groups of people who very clearly have more weighty matters on their minds (like going to heaven and hell, respectively).

I agree. Some Christians argue that good works only count for Christians. If someone is hungry, and you feed them, you get some kind of coupon if you are saved, but it is null and void if you are not saved.

But that isn't what the passage says.
The master forgives the man, who refuses to forgive his servant, and the man's forgiveness is forfeited by his own refusal to forfeit.

But his sins were forgiven! He was saved! He was forgiven!
Oops. As you judge, so are you judged.
As you forgive, so are you forgiven.
As you love, so are you loved.

However, to think yourself somehow more special in God's eyes, because you have asked Jesus to be your Savior, exhalts yourself, not God. It humbles God, because look at you! You asked Jesus into your heart! What a big man you are! You have practically saved yourself! If you exhalt yourself on works that are the same as the unsaved, you again exhalt yourself. If you cannot appreciate one loving his neighbor in his selfless actions, simply because he is not a Christian, you humble your neighbor to make yourself look better.

And Christ will humble those who exhalt themself, and exhalt those who humble themselves - the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

Ever read the story where Simon doubts Christ's divinity because Christ allows a prostitute to wash his feet, and Simon wouldn't even allow the woman near him, because he knew "what kind of woman she was"?
Christ asked Simon who loved his master more, the one forgiven a great debt, or the one forgiven a small debt." Simon answered, "The one forgiven a great debt." Christ answered, "You have judged rightly. I was your guest. You did not wash my feet, but she has washed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. You did not annoint my head, but she has offered her oil to me."

In other words, Simon, who thought himself better than the prostitute, was humbled, and told that not only was Simon not above the prostitute's heart, but not even up to the love that she clearly displayed. In short, she loved Christ more than Simon, who taught the law, and how to live, to serve God.

Ironic, huh?

So, I would be very careful on how far up you exhalt yourself. The higher you put yourself, the farther you will fall when you are humbled.

9And He also told this parable to some people who (L)trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and (M)viewed others with contempt:
10"Two men (N)went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11"The Pharisee (O)stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

12'I (P)fast twice a week; I (Q)pay tithes of all that I get.'

13"But the tax collector, (R)standing some distance away, (S)was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but (T)was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; (U)for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
 
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PastorJim

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If the works don't mean anything, why bother using them as a point of reference??

All throughout the New Testament, we're told that works are a response to salvation, not a means to salvation, and that whether or not we are saved is reflected in our works.

Jesus is not saying that they're saved by their good works, but that their good works are a reflection of their salvation.
 
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PastorJim

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It looks to me like Jesus is explaining why the people in one group are "sheep" and the people in the other group are "goats."

No. Neither the context of this passage nor the analogy of scripture support this.

Over and over, throughout the scriptures, the image of sheep is used to refer to those who are saved and we already know that people are not saved by good works, but by repentance and faith in Christ.

Likewise, we know that the unsaved, whom the goats represent, are not damned because they did not do good works, but as a result of their sin.
 
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TooCurious

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No. Neither the context of this passage nor the analogy of scripture support this.

Over and over, throughout the scriptures, the image of sheep is used to refer to those who are saved and we already know that people are not saved by good works, but by repentance and faith in Christ.

Likewise, we know that the unsaved, whom the goats represent, are not damned because they did not do good works, but as a result of their sin.

Explain to me how "repentance" and "faith in Christ" are not works. Does one choose to do them, consciously and deliberately?
  • If yes, then they are indeed "works."
  • If no, then those who do not do them are "goats" through no fault of their own, so how is it right to condemn them?
 
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PastorJim

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Explain to me how "repentance" and "faith in Christ" are not works. Does one choose to do them, consciously and deliberately?

First, when the Bible talk about works, it's talking about religious rituals. Neither of these are rituals.

Second, the Bible tells us that both of these things are gifts from God, not works.
If no, then those who do not do them are "goats" through no fault of their own, so how is it right to condemn them?

No, they're not goats because they did not do these things. They're goats because of their sin.
 
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TooCurious

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First, when the Bible talk about works, it's talking about religious rituals. Neither of these are rituals.

Helping the poor and the less-fortunate aren't rituals either, but they're frequently cited as "works." If the bit about "works" isn't meant to convey that doing good deeds and behaving in a morally-positive manner won't get a person into heaven, please explain what it means instead.

Second, the Bible tells us that both of these things are gifts from God, not works.

Are you saying, then, that a person does not consciously choose to repent his sins and accept Christ?

No, they're not goats because they did not do these things. They're goats because of their sin.

But if the "goats" are unable to choose to repent and accept Christ, it is not their fault, because they were unable to do otherwise. After all, if they did these things, they wouldn't be "goats," right? But if they can't choose to do these things, and God chooses not to give them this "gift," it's God who chooses to condemn them. Based on what you've just said.
 
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