Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

BobKat · Apr 13, 2004

Shane,
Many acts of love between gays really are between couples who are "in love", believe it or not. Most gay couples I know are in committed, monogamous relationships. At this point, I know more straight people in relationship trouble than gay people. To liken homosexuality to a sickening crime as razzleflabben did is an insult.

Shane Roach · Apr 13, 2004

Outspoken said:
1. God sees every action as right and wrong
2. We do not see that, we see gray
3. some actions we believe to be right could, in fact, be wrong (ie sin).
4. Thus the same with homosexuality.

A homosexual can be a christian as much as any other sinner. To say someone is NOT a christian because they are a homosexual is NOT biblical, and you can quote me on that one.

I very carefully stated that if a person repents, then they are allowed back into the church. I never said a thing about whether or not they were a Christian, but I would also point out that if any statement that someone is not a Christian is anathema either to Christianity or the rules of posting, then this entire thread is moot since that is the question being asked.

To an extent, if the question can be answered at all one must first ask what do you mean by homosexual. If someone remains an unrepentant homosexual all their life and yet claims Christianity, that is demonstrably a person who is not Christian and who we were instructed in the New Testament not to associate with, but no one can ever know that until the person is already dead, so the point is rather moot.

Shane Roach · Apr 13, 2004

BobKat said:
Shane,
Many acts of love between gays really are between couples who are "in love", believe it or not. Most gay couples I know are in committed, monogamous relationships. At this point, I know more straight people in relationship trouble than gay people. To liken homosexuality to a sickening crime as razzleflabben did is an insult.

Being in love does not make homosexual acts sinless. The statistics go against your personal experiences with gays. It may be a sad thing for you to have to deal with, but for many people homosexuality is just a sickening crime. Again, this really has nothing to do with the question posed on this thread, but when you choose to make a response of the type you did, it seems unreasonable to me for you to then find offense when the same sorts of comments are aimed at your own views. Ultimately, the comparison that was made was about the irrelevancy of genetic predisposition to the question of sin, and it is not automicatically an insult, though it is obviously going to be insulting to those who hold your views from a purely aesthetic point of view.

If, on the other hand, you had actually addressed the point raised that genetic predisposition doesn't fundamentally excuse sin, then this entire unpleasant turn of this thread could be avoided.

fragmentsofdreams · Apr 14, 2004

Shane Roach said:
fragments,

The Bible is not oblique about sex. When men were going to rape other men, it makes it as clear as it makes it when a man goes in and 'knows' his wife. That assertion is simply false.

The Bible does become oblique about sex at times. For example, often the genitals are refered to euphemistically as feet, IIRC to know is primarily used non-sexually and only occasionally as a euphemism for sex, and the Bible also uses uncovering nakedness as another euphemism for sex.

Two examples of sex acts refered to obliquely enough for a casual reader to miss:

1. In Genesis 9, Ham, son of Noah, "saw the nakedness" of his father, who was passed out drunk. Given the use of this phrase, it is likely that Ham actually raped Noah rather than snuck a peak.

2. In Ruth 3. Ruth uncovers Boaz's feet, strongly implying some sort of sexual act.

fragmentsofdreams · Apr 14, 2004

Shane Roach said:
And, finally, I repeat, Christ reaffirmed the Genesis account of marriage as the first, best way for marriage to be, setting aside even the commonplace and often referenced multiple wives of antiquity. With absolutely no examples of any other marriage other than the heterosexual one, there really is not any room for doubt. Franly, even if there were some room for doubt in the one example of David and Jonathan, that would still not be enough to turn the entire concept of marriage on its ear for the sake of a brand new interpretion.

This is ultimately an argument from silence: because the Bible never explicitly describes homosexual marriages it implicitly excludes them as a moral option. This is just as fallacious as when people justify homosexuality by pointing to Jesus' silence on the issue.

PastorFreud · Apr 14, 2004

Outspoken said:
1. God sees every action as right and wrong

Any proof for this assertion? I don't believe that God casts everything as a moral decision. It is wrong to have froot loops for breakfast instead of Captain Crunch?

2. We do not see that, we see gray

Louis Armstrong said it best:

I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.

I see skies of blue and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.

The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky
Are also on the faces of people going by
I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do
They're really saying I love you.

3. some actions we believe to be right could, in fact, be wrong (ie sin).

And some actions that look like they are not sin, are, in fact, sin because they are done from impure motives. We cannot judge on actions alone. Also, some things we think could be wrong may, in fact, be right.

4. Thus the same with homosexuality.

Oversimplification.

A homosexual can be a christian as much as any other sinner. To say someone is NOT a christian because they are a homosexual is NOT biblical, and you can quote me on that one.

Thanks! I will. Glad you recognize this important point.

razzelflabben · Apr 14, 2004

BobKat said:
Shane,
Many acts of love between gays really are between couples who are "in love", believe it or not. Most gay couples I know are in committed, monogamous relationships. At this point, I know more straight people in relationship trouble than gay people. To liken homosexuality to a sickening crime as razzleflabben did is an insult.

I likened homosexuality to a sickening crime in the same way I did, heterosexual pre marital sex, etc. This is a discussion about christianity and homosexuality. To God, there is no hierachy of sin. Sin is sin. A rapists sin according to God is grounds for death, so is adultry, lust, premarital sex, etc. Don't read into posts what is not there.

razzelflabben · Apr 14, 2004

BobKat said:
To say that a rapist is hard wired to rape has a least some basis, but to say that it is okay for them to act on that urge because of their wiring is ludicrist.[/QUOTE
Wow...A consensual act of love between two adults being compared with a non-consensual act of violence is...well, "ludicrous".
I am happy for you that your husband is able to refrain from adultery, porn and other acts that heterosexuals are apparently hard-wired to act upon. Who knew hets were so depraved?
BobKat

Click to expand...

This response shows a lack of understanding the post I made as well as an emotional arguement rather than one based on biblical understanding.

mpshiel · Apr 14, 2004

Shane Roach said:
Being in love does not make homosexual acts sinless. The statistics go against your personal experiences with gays. It may be a sad thing for you to have to deal with, but for many people homosexuality is just a sickening crime. Again, this really has nothing to do with the question posed on this thread, but when you choose to make a response of the type you did, it seems unreasonable to me for you to then find offense when the same sorts of comments are aimed at your own views.

hmmmmm?

I likened homosexuality to a sickening crime in the same way I did, heterosexual pre marital sex, etc. This is a discussion about christianity and homosexuality. To God, there is no hierachy of sin.

Strange, I don't see anything about premartial sex being called a sickening crime? Oh, sin is it? Sorry. Just to let you know, when people in the Western world say, "It was just a sickening crime." Other people in English speaking counties assume you are talking about: rape, torturing animals, cruelty to the elderly or children or of acts of extreme brutality - like smashing someones face with a bat. So when you say many find homosexuality a "sickening crime" then people would mentally compare it with things like torturing animals or children. But if you were talking about sin, like for intance, envy. Not a lot of people would say, "Bob saw his neighbors car today and really wanted one like it, it was a sickening crime." - But as no harm was meant, just thought I would let you know.

And in response to Shane, yes: one can love without penatrative sex. One can kiss, cuddle, hold hands, sit in each others lap, massage each other with vanilla scented oil, wrap your bodies together, caress using only the fingertips, give little nibbles and also stroke finger through each other's hair. I assume that these are all fine between two people of the same sex in love as long as no SEX is involved? If not, can you please isolate which behaviors require repentance and which don't - including winks, sultry glances, whispers, brushing against each other and devious smiles.

razzelflabben · Apr 14, 2004

To take things back to the op Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual? Those who have read my posts will note that I likened homosexuality to any sin that man can commit, including but not limited to everyone who calles themselves christian. The the act of homosexuality was later discussed specifically with which I responded that it is necessary for the christian to exercise self control over the old man, thus living a victorious life in Christ. I had no idea that this line of biblical teaching was so far removed from the christian line of thinking. I cannot appologize for saying it because it is scriptural but I do appologize for being so far removed from what people are thinking and being taught, as to stir things up so.

What really burdens me on this issue is the fierce attacks at such statements. We have a dear friend who is from Nigeria, (the MK home of my husband) we talked to him once about polygamous converts in Nigeria. What he said was very interesting. He said that when a man comes to Christ, and has many wives, the church basically waits for the Holy Spirit to convict the man. Inevitably the wives will see a change in the man and some will (at great sacrifice to themselves) offer to leave so that the man is free to exercise that self control over the desires of the flesh.

This brings two questions to my mind. One, why is the church so adament about the sin of homosexuality (a similar biblical arguement to monogamy) Why not allow the Holy Spirit to convict when the time is right for the individual to deal with the issue in his or her own life? Secondly, why are so many people acting as though they are convicted on the issue but instead of answering the call to the life God has called them to they argue and fight?

razzelflabben · Apr 14, 2004

mpshiel said:
hmmmmm?

Strange, I don't see anything about premartial sex being called a sickening crime? Oh, sin is it? Sorry. Just to let you know, when people in the Western world say, "It was just a sickening crime." Other people in English speaking counties assume you are talking about: rape, torturing animals, cruelty to the elderly or children or of acts of extreme brutality - like smashing someones face with a bat. So when you say many find homosexuality a "sickening crime" then people would mentally compare it with things like torturing animals or children. But if you were talking about sin, like for intance, envy. Not a lot of people would say, "Bob saw his neighbors car today and really wanted one like it, it was a sickening crime." - But as no harm was meant, just thought I would let you know.

And in response to Shane, yes: one can love without penatrative sex. One can kiss, cuddle, hold hands, sit in each others lap, massage each other with vanilla scented oil, wrap your bodies together, caress using only the fingertips, give little nibbles and also stroke finger through each other's hair. I assume that these are all fine between two people of the same sex in love as long as no SEX is involved? If not, can you please isolate which behaviors require repentance and which don't - including winks, sultry glances, whispers, brushing against each other and devious smiles.

Don't think I ever said that homosexuality was a "sickening crime" you'll have to take me back to that one because I do not believe that it is any worse a sin than any other in God's eyes and in the eyes of society it should be a mild issue at best. I thought you were referring to my post where I mentioned that a rapist is hard wired to rape, I don't recall saying that homosexuality is a "sickening crime" please show me where I said that it was and I will show you a post that was hacked.

artybloke · Apr 14, 2004

The statistics go against your personal experiences with gays

What statistics would these be then? Refs. please.

UberLutheran · Apr 14, 2004

jessedance said:
we had a teen who was born again and spirit filled, he had visions from god. but he decided to live the homosexual lifestyle when he grew up and gave it all up. you can be born again and do anything you want after you become a christian. lots do. im sure lots of homosexuals have had the born again experience, im sure some of them even know god. i think they will be cast into hell unless they repent someday but god i s still working on them. lots of christians go to church and get drunk on sat or fri nite. gods still working on them. if they don't eventualy repent they too will be cast inot hell.

...we're justified by whether or not God made us heterosexual or homosexual.

Therefore, Christ really didn't have to die on the Cross for anyone, or the sins of anyone, because it matters more whether or not one is heterosexual (and for women, that means a married heterosexual who has had children because the Bible explicitly states in 1 Timothy 2 that women will be saved only through childbearing).

Thanks for clearing that up for us, jessedance. I only wish Martin Luther had been around to hear you say that.

mpshiel · Apr 14, 2004

razzelflabben said:
Don't think I ever said that homosexuality was a "sickening crime" you'll have to take me back to that one because I do not believe that it is any worse a sin than any other in God's eyes and in the eyes of society it should be a mild issue at best. I thought you were referring to my post where I mentioned that a rapist is hard wired to rape, I don't recall saying that homosexuality is a "sickening crime" please show me where I said that it was and I will show you a post that was hacked.

You are totally correct and I apologize, for some reason I thought you were responding as if Shane's thread was yours.

razzelflabben · Apr 14, 2004

mpshiel said:
You are totally correct and I apologize, for some reason I thought you were responding as if Shane's thread was yours.

apology accepted, it is easy to get things confused on this forum sometimes, I've done it myself.

zoe_uu · Apr 14, 2004

I'm just wondering how many of you are gay.... and if you're not, why are you so worried or concerned with what goes on in your neighbors bedroom? I find it really funny that so many heterosexual Christians are sitting around wringing their hands and debating and making judgements about who someone else loves.

Polycarp1 · Apr 14, 2004

veggie said:
I'm just wondering how many of you are gay.... and if you're not, why are you so worried or concerned with what goes on in your neighbors bedroom? I find it really funny that so many heterosexual Christians are sitting around wringing their hands and debating and making judgements about who someone else loves.

Good point -- in fact the only objection that I have to what you have to say here is that the last pronoun should be "whom" -- the English teacher in me coming out, so to speak!

From one perspective, God condemns every single one of us, and justly, for the sins which we commit against His moral law. We all fall short of what He would truly have us be.

But His Grace is sufficient that every one of us who turns to Him with the intent to take Christ as his Lord and Savior is saved, redeemed, and justified before Him, and the Holy Spirit begins work within that person to remake him or her into what God would have us be. Part of this involves the "conviction of sin," where God the Holy Spirit brings home clearly to the conscience of the individual particular ways in which he or she has fallen short, and calls him or her to repentance.

We all have the tendency to "play God" and decide what He is down on in the lives of others, while taking a blind eye to our own faults. When I start to condemn something that, say, Outspoken has to say (and I hope he will honor and respect my using him, with whom I've had disagreements over theology in the past, as my example here), I am guilty of the same thing of which I find fault with him for doing -- arrogating to myself the place of God and sitting in judgment over him. Rather, I'm supposed to be trying to "clean up my own act" -- and so are Outspoken and mpshiel and all the rest of us whose lives Christ bought with His own blood.

I'm convinced that God has both knowledge and power to bring about repentance in the lives of any of us who seek to follow Him, and that our attempting to "call the shots" on who should repent of what when, is a violation of His prerogative -- He will call each of us to repent of sin in our lives as and when He will, in His own time and to His own pleasure.

In short, whether "homosexuality is a sin" is a problem that needs to be dealt with only by those tempted to it, and those whom they turn to for counsel as they attempt to live out lives transformed by Christ. And any such counsel needs to be done with compassion and brotherly love in the high seat, and with any tendencies to judge one's fellow man firmly quashed within oneself.

With the measure with which you judge, says Christ, you will be judged. As you do unto another, so will He take it as having been done unto Him. As we seek to be judged with forgiveness, compassion, grace, and love, so also should we judge.

Outspoken · Apr 14, 2004

PastorFreud said:
Any proof for this assertion? I don't believe that God casts everything as a moral decision. It is wrong to have froot loops for breakfast instead of Captain Crunch?

Louis Armstrong said it best:

I see trees of green, red roses too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.

I see skies of blue and clouds of white
The bright blessed day, the dark sacred night
And I think to myself what a wonderful world.

The colors of the rainbow so pretty in the sky
Are also on the faces of people going by
I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do
They're really saying I love you.

And some actions that look like they are not sin, are, in fact, sin because they are done from impure motives. We cannot judge on actions alone. Also, some things we think could be wrong may, in fact, be right.

Oversimplification.

Thanks! I will. Glad you recognize this important point.

"Any proof for this assertion?"

There is no inbetween with God. YOu are for him or against him. there is on inbetween. Scripture is pretty clear on that.

"We cannot judge on actions alone."

I disagree on certain actions. Lying is always sin no matter the motivation. Adultry is always sin, no matter the motivcation, homosexuality is always sin, no matter the motivation, rape is always sin, no matter the motivation.

Outspoken · Apr 14, 2004

Shane Roach said:
I very carefully stated that if a person repents, then they are allowed back into the church. I never said a thing about whether or not they were a Christian, but I would also point out that if any statement that someone is not a Christian is anathema either to Christianity or the rules of posting, then this entire thread is moot since that is the question being asked.

To an extent, if the question can be answered at all one must first ask what do you mean by homosexual. If someone remains an unrepentant homosexual all their life and yet claims Christianity, that is demonstrably a person who is not Christian and who we were instructed in the New Testament not to associate with, but no one can ever know that until the person is already dead, so the point is rather moot.

I would disagree with you. Homosexuality is sin, but according to scripture, the only sin we are not covered for is grieving the Holy Spirit. Homosexuality is sin, but it is covered by the grace of God and the sacrifice of The Christ. As for the gentics of it, i don't think people are born gay. I think it is a choice someone makes.

Shane Roach · Apr 14, 2004

fragmentsofdreams said:
The Bible does become oblique about sex at times. For example, often the genitals are refered to euphemistically as feet, IIRC to know is primarily used non-sexually and only occasionally as a euphemism for sex, and the Bible also uses uncovering nakedness as another euphemism for sex.

Two examples of sex acts refered to obliquely enough for a casual reader to miss:

1. In Genesis 9, Ham, son of Noah, "saw the nakedness" of his father, who was passed out drunk. Given the use of this phrase, it is likely that Ham actually raped Noah rather than snuck a peak.

2. In Ruth 3. Ruth uncovers Boaz's feet, strongly implying some sort of sexual act.

So first you invent a new interpretation as sexual, then you pretend that it is 'oblique'. No, Ruth didn't lay down on Boaz's naked genitals in public. Sorry. But no. I am astonished.... That's a new one on me and I thought I had heard it all.

Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

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