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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Is there Objective Morality?
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<blockquote data-quote="Bradskii" data-source="post: 76297872" data-attributes="member: 412388"><p>It's often said in forums such as this that the bible doesn't actually say 'do not kill'. The command is better translated as 'do not murder'. And the difference is obviously important, because killing someone could be done in a variety of circumstances, some justified and some not.</p><p></p><p>So the trolley problem doesn't ask 'should you murder this person to save five?' Because we understand the term murder to be used for an act that is considered wrong in the first instance. But murder is defined as killing 'with malice aforethought' (with no malice aforethought it's 'unlawful killing').</p><p></p><p>But as regards rape, there have been moves, fairly recently I think, where the grey areas have been removed. To the point where malice is not included and it has been defined simply as sexual intercourse without consent.</p><p></p><p>So o_mlly has picked a bad example to use as an example of objective morality because almost all reasonable people would say that a drunken married couple having sex - without her consent (the very definition of rape), is perfectly acceptable (hands up all those that haven't been in that position). Assuming of course that the wife would have readily agreed should she have been able to. So whether it's 'wrong' is entirely up to the subjective view of the woman.</p><p></p><p>What o_mlly has been doing is looking for an example of an act that we would all agree is wrong and then, and <em>therefore</em>, declaring it to be objectively wrong (and, as we have seen, suggesting that anyone who argues against that must think that the rape is acceptable). He would have been better served by asking if having sex with a woman (or man) against their will could be acceptable in any way.</p><p></p><p>But note the term 'against their will'. It is crashingly obvious that the act is wrong or not <em>depending on how the person feels about it. </em>It's wrong if she thinks it's wrong and acceptable if she thinks it's OK. When o_mlly asks if rape is acceptable, then what he is asking is whether having sexual intercourse when the woman doesn't want to is ok. If the woman is personally against it (and it doesn't matter if it's a gang of strangers or her husband) then it's wrong. If she's ok with it, it's not wrong. That makes it relative.</p><p></p><p>And I might note that whether it's a premise or a conclusion put forward promoting objective morality, the question is always asked in some form: 'Surely you agree with this?'</p><p></p><p>I'm actually being asked my opinion as to whether something is objective?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bradskii, post: 76297872, member: 412388"] It's often said in forums such as this that the bible doesn't actually say 'do not kill'. The command is better translated as 'do not murder'. And the difference is obviously important, because killing someone could be done in a variety of circumstances, some justified and some not. So the trolley problem doesn't ask 'should you murder this person to save five?' Because we understand the term murder to be used for an act that is considered wrong in the first instance. But murder is defined as killing 'with malice aforethought' (with no malice aforethought it's 'unlawful killing'). But as regards rape, there have been moves, fairly recently I think, where the grey areas have been removed. To the point where malice is not included and it has been defined simply as sexual intercourse without consent. So o_mlly has picked a bad example to use as an example of objective morality because almost all reasonable people would say that a drunken married couple having sex - without her consent (the very definition of rape), is perfectly acceptable (hands up all those that haven't been in that position). Assuming of course that the wife would have readily agreed should she have been able to. So whether it's 'wrong' is entirely up to the subjective view of the woman. What o_mlly has been doing is looking for an example of an act that we would all agree is wrong and then, and [I]therefore[/I], declaring it to be objectively wrong (and, as we have seen, suggesting that anyone who argues against that must think that the rape is acceptable). He would have been better served by asking if having sex with a woman (or man) against their will could be acceptable in any way. But note the term 'against their will'. It is crashingly obvious that the act is wrong or not [I]depending on how the person feels about it. [/I]It's wrong if she thinks it's wrong and acceptable if she thinks it's OK. When o_mlly asks if rape is acceptable, then what he is asking is whether having sexual intercourse when the woman doesn't want to is ok. If the woman is personally against it (and it doesn't matter if it's a gang of strangers or her husband) then it's wrong. If she's ok with it, it's not wrong. That makes it relative. And I might note that whether it's a premise or a conclusion put forward promoting objective morality, the question is always asked in some form: 'Surely you agree with this?' I'm actually being asked my opinion as to whether something is objective? [/QUOTE]
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