Is There Any Scriptural Backing For Calling Someone An Intercessor?

[MadameGuyon]

I was having a conversation with KingZzub on another thread about this subject, so rather than derail that thread, I started this new one, in hopes that we can continue our conversation, and others might join in.

He asked, where in the New Testament is a person called an intercessor? Along those same lines, I might ask him to show me one person in the New Testament that was called a pastor?

The word pastor is mentioned only one time in the New Testament, and yet the concept is there and we accept it without argument.

My contention is that the concept of 'intercessors' is there, as well, (I Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men),
so it is not off-base to call some people intercessors if that seems to be there primary work. An example of that is....
Luke 2:36-38
Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Notice that her gifting is listed as prophetess, but her work both day and night is prayer and fasting. Is it unscriptural to say that Anna was an intercessor? Would it be improper to say that her work was a work of action and that it advanced the Kingdom of God?


Let's look at the ministry of Cornelius in Act 10......
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.

Notice that God recognized his continual ministry of prayers and alms as a legitimate service to Him, rewarding him with a vision to send for Peter to show him the way of salvation.

In Colos. 4: 12-13 Paul commends Epaphras for his zealous, fervent continual labor (action word) in prayer for the Colossians, Laodiceans and Hierapolisians.

Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.

Is his work of prayer not worthly of being counted as real ministry simply because it's not teaching, preaching, or healing the sick?

Could it be that God, Himself placed that zeal in his heart just so he could, through intercessions, plow the ground of their heart so the disciples who were teaching and preaching to them could more effectually sow and water the good seed of the Word to them?
....
In Rev. 5:8 we see, in John's vision, golden bowls full of incense, to be the prayers of the saints.

(Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.)

If we look back at the Old Testament temple, which is a pattern of the heavenly realities, we find that there were those priests that were specifically assigned by God to keep this incense burning day and night, continually before Him. This was a legitimate work of the priesthood. Not all priests did it, but those assigned by God. If God gave this assignment to certain of the priests as service before Him, and those things are a shadow of the real, is it far-fetched to think that some today might have that same ministry patterned for us in the OldTestament? Would it be too far off base to call their ministry one of intercession?

I Chron. 23:13 The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses; and Aaron was set apart, he and his sons forever, that he should sanctify the most holy things, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister to Him, and to give the blessing in His name forever.

In the following verse below, we see that God even consecrated certain ones to burn incense before them, implying a calling or commission to a ministry.

2 Chron. 26:18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the LORD, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense.

So, do scriptures present us evidence for the legitimate ministry of intercession, or is it just an excuse to get out of preaching, teaching, healing the sick?

 

[ARBITER01]

Good topic.

Here are three sections of scripture for thought,..

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." (Romans 8:34)

"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25)

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:26-27)

 

[Magentic]

I was having a conversation with KingZzub on another thread about this subject, so rather than derail that thread, I started this new one, in hopes that we can continue our conversation, and others might join in.

He asked, where in the New Testament is a person called an intercessor? Along those same lines, I might ask him to show me one person in the New Testament that was called a pastor?

The word pastor is mentioned only one time in the New Testament, and yet the concept is there and we accept it without argument.

My contention is that the concept of 'intercessors' is there, as well, (I Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men),
so it is not off-base to call some people intercessors if that seems to be there primary work. An example of that is....
Luke 2:36-38
Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Notice that her gifting is listed as prophetess, but her work both day and night is prayer and fasting. Is it unscriptural to say that Anna was an intercessor? Would it be improper to say that her work was a work of action and that it advanced the Kingdom of God?


Let's look at the ministry of Cornelius in Act 10......
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.

Notice that God recognized his continual ministry of prayers and alms as a legitimate service to Him, rewarding him with a vision to send for Peter to show him the way of salvation.

In Colos. 4: 12-13 Paul commends Epaphras for his zealous, fervent continual labor (action word) in prayer for the Colossians, Laodiceans and Hierapolisians.

Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.

Is his work of prayer not worthly of being counted as real ministry simply because it's not teaching, preaching, or healing the sick?

Could it be that God, Himself placed that zeal in his heart just so he could, through intercessions, plow the ground of their heart so the disciples who were teaching and preaching to them could more effectually sow and water the good seed of the Word to them?
....
In Rev. 5:8 we see, in John's vision, golden bowls full of incense, to be the prayers of the saints.

(Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.)

If we look back at the Old Testament temple, which is a pattern of the heavenly realities, we find that there were those priests that were specifically assigned by God to keep this incense burning day and night, continually before Him. This was a legitimate work of the priesthood. Not all priests did it, but those assigned by God. If God gave this assignment to certain of the priests as service before Him, and those things are a shadow of the real, is it far-fetched to think that some today might have that same ministry patterned for us in the OldTestament? Would it be too far off base to call their ministry one of intercession?

I Chron. 23:13 The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses; and Aaron was set apart, he and his sons forever, that he should sanctify the most holy things, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister to Him, and to give the blessing in His name forever.

In the following verse below, we see that God even consecrated certain ones to burn incense before them, implying a calling or commission to a ministry.

2 Chron. 26:18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the LORD, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense.

So, do scriptures present us evidence for the legitimate ministry of intercession, or is it just an excuse to get out of preaching, teaching, healing the sick?

It's OT priestly work, performed by the high priest for us in the NT. But the place it was offered was at the golden altar of the Holy Place, seen again in the heavenly tabernacle that contain the prayers of the saints.

 

[KingZzub]

I was having a conversation with KingZzub on another thread about this subject, so rather than derail that thread, I started this new one, in hopes that we can continue our conversation, and others might join in.

Sounds like a plan. I am eager to hear your New Testament case for intercessors.

He asked, where in the New Testament is a person called an intercessor? Along those same lines, I might ask him to show me one person in the New Testament that was called a pastor?

Good point. After all, if I am engaged in an unbiblical practice, along with the denomination that ordained me, in calling myself pastor this would be a key issue.

Ephesians 4.11 says that Jesus gave pastors to the church. There were people in the church called pastors and they were given to the church by Jesus. That Scripture is remarkably clear, but I will give you a couple more.

In 1 Peter 5.2, the Greek word for pastor is used as a verb:

Feed (Greek pastor) the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Paul is writing to the leaders of the church and telling them to pastor, so that is a direct instruction from the Bible to do this work.

In addition, in the book of Acts, during a leader's conference, we have this Scripture:

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed (Greek pastor) the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

So we have:

1. Direct information from the Bible that there are pastors in the church (Ephesians 4.11)
2. A clear command in the epistles to church leaders to act as pastors (1 Peter 5.2)
3. A clear example of pastors found in the book of Acts and their responsibilities outlined (Acts 20.28).

Do you have in Scripture direct information that Jesus Christ has placed intercessors in the church? Do you have a clear command in the epistles that certain people should act as intercessors? Do you have an example of intercessors in the book of Acts?

If so, I would love to see that information. Thanks.

The word pastor is mentioned only one time in the New Testament, and yet the concept is there and we accept it without argument.

See above.

My contention is that the concept of 'intercessors' is there, as well, (I Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men),
so it is not off-base to call some people intercessors if that seems to be there primary work. An example of that is....

Then you would have to by the evidence of this verse call people supplicators, prayers and thanksgivers. I have never heard of anyone doing so. Why are you taking one form of prayer that is clearly IN CONTEXT a form of prayer that EVERYONE is called to do and make it your personal ministry? What is the Biblical basis for this?

Luke 2:36-38
Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Sounds like the lady had a great relationship with God. Cannot read a word in this text about her making intercession though. Interesting that your Scripture evidence doesn't actually say what you want it to say.

Notice that her gifting is listed as prophetess, but her work both day and night is prayer and fasting. Is it unscriptural to say that Anna was an intercessor? Would it be improper to say that her work was a work of action and that it advanced the Kingdom of God?

Not sure. Sound more like to me she had a great relationship with God and God spoke to her about the future.

Let's look at the ministry of Cornelius in Act 10......
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.

Where is the proof this man is an intercessor?

Notice that God recognized his continual ministry of prayers and alms as a legitimate service to Him, rewarding him with a vision to send for Peter to show him the way of salvation.

100% agreed.

In Colos. 4: 12-13 Paul commends Epaphras for his zealous, fervent continual labor (action word) in prayer for the Colossians, Laodiceans and Hierapolisians.

Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 13 For I bear him witness that he has a great zeal for you, and those who are in Laodicea, and those in Hierapolis.

Great Scripture. Vital that we have people who pray for the church.

Is his work of prayer not worthly of being counted as real ministry simply because it's not teaching, preaching, or healing the sick?

Don't believe I said that prayer is not a vital ministry and that prayer is not important. Ephaphras was not an intercessor though, was he? Not if you use the Biblical text alone and not our imaginations. The Bible calls him a deacon - never an intercessor.

I am not against prayer - but prayer is a relationship, a basis for our work, not the actual work!

Could it be that God, Himself placed that zeal in his heart just so he could, through intercessions, plow the ground of their heart so the disciples who were teaching and preaching to them could more effectually sow and water the good seed of the Word to them?
....

Reminds me of Hong Kong Fuey... could be...

I am not interested in a supposition, but a Biblical truth.

In Rev. 5:8 we see, in John's vision, golden bowls full of incense, to be the prayers of the saints.

(Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.)

If we look back at the Old Testament temple, which is a pattern of the heavenly realities, we find that there were those priests that were specifically assigned by God to keep this incense burning day and night, continually before Him. This was a legitimate work of the priesthood. Not all priests did it, but those assigned by God. If God gave this assignment to certain of the priests as service before Him, and those things are a shadow of the real, is it far-fetched to think that some today might have that same ministry patterned for us in the OldTestament? Would it be too far off base to call their ministry one of intercession?

Surely if priests are the OT intercessors then as we are all priests then we are all intercessors. This logic does not hold water. Why, from the Bible, do you call some people intercessors? That question has still to find an answer.

I Chron. 23:13 The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses; and Aaron was set apart, he and his sons forever, that he should sanctify the most holy things, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister to Him, and to give the blessing in His name forever.

Does this really answer the question?

In the following verse below, we see that God even consecrated certain ones to burn incense before them, implying a calling or commission to a ministry.

2 Chron. 26:18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the LORD, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense.

So, do scriptures present us evidence for the legitimate ministry of intercession, or is it just an excuse to get out of preaching, teaching, healing the sick?

I think we have our answer.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[MadameGuyon]

[/size]
I think we have our answer.

I know that you call the church you pastor an equipping church. Can I assume then that you have on staff the 5 fold ministers (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist)?

Otherwise your people are getting partly equipped. Maybe they are learning from you how to evangelize and lay hands on the sick, but there is sooooooooo very much more to equipping the saints and God has given that job to 5 offices of the church, not just to the pastor.

Your awareness of what God is doing in the earth is, IMHO, narrow and I fear you will discourage and even harm some who don't fit your mold.

By the way, do you have on staff someone called a 'youth pastor'? No such thing mentioned in the bible, but if you have one and call them that, it's okay by me. Do you have Sunday school workers. No such thing as sunday school mentioned in the bible. But fine with me if you have one.

Whether you want to call someone an intercessor or not is of little importance. It's still a fact that there are people out there whose chief business is fervent and continual prayer for others, which is what intercessors do.

My best friend is awakened many a night to pray and often spends all night long in prayer, ministering to the Lord and then praying for those He puts on her heart. She often knows when someone is in trouble. It would put the fear of God in me to belittle her labor before the Lord as not a true ministry and less than teaching, preaching, or healing the sick.

 

[MadameGuyon]

Good topic.

Here are three sections of scripture for thought,..

Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." (Romans 8:34)

"Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:25)

"Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:26-27)

Thanks.

All this continual intercession that the Lord is doing, He is doing through His body. And some saints labor more in this than others. It's not good to negate their very real ministry, by dismissing them as people just wanting to get out of doing something.

 

[ARBITER01]

I know that you call the church you pastor an equipping church. Can I assume then that you have on staff the 5 fold ministers (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist)?

Otherwise your people are getting partly equipped. Maybe they are learning from you how to evangelize and lay hands on the sick, but there is sooooooooo very much more to equipping the saints and God has given that job to 5 offices of the church, not just to the pastor.

Your awareness of what God is doing in the earth is, IMHO, narrow and I fear you will discourage and even harm some who don't fit your mold.

By the way, do you have on staff someone called a 'youth pastor'? No such thing mentioned in the bible, but if you have one and call them that, it's okay by me. Do you have Sunday school workers. No such thing as sunday school mentioned in the bible. But fine with me if you have one.

Whether you want to call someone an intercessor or not is of little importance. It's still a fact that there are people out there whose chief business is fervent and continual prayer for others, which is what intercessors do.

My best friend is awakened many a night to pray and often spends all night long in prayer, ministering to the Lord and then praying for those He puts on her heart. She often knows when someone is in trouble. It would put the fear of God in me to belittle her labor before the Lord as not a true ministry and less than teaching, preaching, or healing the sick.

Good post.

Something with your post here,..

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

Each one of these listed is a ministry within the body of Christ. I guess there are ones listed besides just preacher or pastor, huh?

 

[KingZzub]

I know that you call the church you pastor an equipping church. Can I assume then that you have on staff the 5 fold ministers (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist)?

No, but then nor did the church in Antioch. My church has access to these ministries through. For example, in two Sunday's time we have an apostle from Uganda coming to preach and teach on advancing the kingdom of God. About one month ago we had a prophet from India come and share his heart on the nations. I actually operate as a pastor and teacher.

Otherwise your people are getting partly equipped. Maybe they are learning from you how to evangelize and lay hands on the sick, but there is sooooooooo very much more to equipping the saints and God has given that job to 5 offices of the church, not just to the pastor.

I think you are in the wrong thread. This thread is about the Biblical basis for intercession. If there is a Biblical basis for calling someone an intercessor then please present your case. If you want to start up a thread entitled "What is wrong with Ben's church and how can we make it better", please do. But at the moment this paragraph simply seems like you are making a dig because you cannot find Biblical evidence for the office of intercessor. I am sure you would not do such a thing, but it is interesting that the tone of your post has changed from presenting a Biblical case to making sweeping generalizations about Tree of Life Church.

I appreciate the five fold ministry but I don't believe every church needs to have their own apostle, evangelist, pastor, prophet and teacher. There were prophets and teachers at Antioch, there was a pastor at Ephesus, there were apostles in Jerusalem, but I cannot find anywhere in Scripture that says that you need all five ministries to start a church. If you could show that to me, start a thread on "The Biblical Evidence that you need all Five to start a church".

You also might want to get the "o" key on your keyboard looked at - it seems to be a little sticky.

Your awareness of what God is doing in the earth is, IMHO, narrow and I fear you will discourage and even harm some who don't fit your mold.

Please if this is true, then I would want to address this immediately. Could you please return to the original point of the thread therefore and show me from the Bible where I am wrong.

By the way, do you have on staff someone called a 'youth pastor'? No such thing mentioned in the bible, but if you have one and call them that, it's okay by me. Do you have Sunday school workers. No such thing as sunday school mentioned in the bible. But fine with me if you have one.

I don't have a youth pastor and I don't believe in them. For me, youth church is an oymoron - church is for family. There is no youth church, so there is no youth pastor, rather simple. But thank you for allowing someone in my church to hold that office!

I don't have Sunday school workers. At the moment all the children stay in the church service, but I imagine that will change at some point.

I am not sure why this is being introduced into the post, but thanks for allowing me to have Sunday School workers.

Whether you want to call someone an intercessor or not is of little importance. It's still a fact that there are people out there whose chief business is fervent and continual prayer for others, which is what intercessors do.

Little importance? I think it is vitally important that we:

1) Do not call people by a title that is not Biblical and create an office which does not exist.
2) Do not give people a title which the New Testament reserves for Christ alone.
3) Do not create a gift that does not exist
4) Give people an excuse to hide behind an "intercessor" anointing to avoid operating as Mark 16 says all believers should operate: casting out demons (and I mean being there and out of humans as per every single NT exorcism), healing the sick and preaching the gospel to all creation.

Do you not think that these things are important? Do you not consider that the Biblical evidence is important or not?

My best friend is awakened many a night to pray and often spends all night long in prayer, ministering to the Lord and then praying for those He puts on her heart. She often knows when someone is in trouble. It would put the fear of God in me to belittle her labor before the Lord as not a true ministry and less than teaching, preaching, or healing the sick.

If she is being led by the Lord to minister to Him and pray for people, I have nothing against that.

It would concern me if she was not also preaching and healing the sick because obedience to one Scripture does not mean you can ignore the rest and her highest office is that of a saint, just like I cannot get out of doing the works because I am a pastor and teacher. However, as we have seen there is no Biblical warrant to say she is an intercessor and to me calling things what the Bible calls them is rather important.

If it is not to you, that is your right and your freedom to call yourself what you want. Perhaps you need a new thread title though?

Blessings,
Ben

 

[ARBITER01]

Thanks.

All this continual intercession that the Lord is doing, He is doing through His body. And some saints labor more in this than others. It's not good to negate their very real ministry, by dismissing them as people just wanting to get out of doing something.

Well we don't find the word Trinity in our bible either, but the concept is "taught" in our bible, both OT and NT, for instance,..

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.

The three distinguishable beings of the GODHEAD are clearly identified here, so we do understand that the GODHEAD is a trinity or triune makeup.


We don't have to have a specific word or title stated if the teaching is clearly promoted in scripture, and just going over the scripture verses you supplied, it is clearly taught.

For instance,..

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Is there a ministry listed in our bible for a prophesier in our church? No there isn't, you won't find it listed in our bibles at all, but the teaching is there, so we are able to accept it.

 

[KingZzub]

I agree with that Arbiter. It is the teaching that is vital.

So, Arbiter, on that basis please can you present to me the Biblical evidence from the New Testament that there should be people with the gift of intercession in the body of Christ.

I am only asking for Biblical evidence for this, nothing more.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[ARBITER01]

He asked, where in the New Testament is a person called an intercessor? Along those same lines, I might ask him to show me one person in the New Testament that was called a pastor?

Our biblical basis for operating as intercessors to GOD is centered around our calling as priests,..

1Pe 2:5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may shew forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Rev 1:6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Each of us as priests are able to stand before GOD to offer up spiritual sacrifices, and between GOD and sinful mankind to bring them to Jesus.

 

[ARBITER01]

So, Arbiter, on that basis please can you present to me the Biblical evidence from the New Testament that there should be people with the gift of intercession in the body of Christ.

Who said it was a gift?

We are all called as born again Christians to intercede on behalf of mankind as priests.

 

[KingZzub]

Madame Guyon did, Arbiter. I thought you were also taking that view, I apologize for my erroneous assumption.

Madame Guyon - and she can correct me if I am wrong - believes that God calls some people intercessors and that it is an office in the church such as pastor and evangelist.

I did assume by your quote of 1 Cor. 12.28 and your comment that there are more ministries than preaching that you were agreeing with her that there is such an office of intercession.

I agree that there is no special office of pray-er or intercessor and that all of the body of Christ are to have a developed relationship with the Lord through prayer and the Word, and that we are all called to pray for others.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[KingZzub]

Madame Guyon did, Arbiter. I thought you were also taking that view, I apologize for my erroneous assumption.

Madame Guyon - and she can correct me if I am wrong - believes that God calls some people intercessors and that it is an office in the church such as pastor and evangelist.

I did assume by your quote of 1 Cor. 12.28 and your comment that there are more ministries than preaching that you were agreeing with her that there is such an office of intercession.

I agree that there is no special office of pray-er or intercessor and that all of the body of Christ are to have a developed relationship with the Lord through prayer and the Word, and that we are all called to pray for others.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[ARBITER01]

Madame Guyon did, Arbiter. I thought you were also taking that view, I apologize for my erroneous assumption.

Madame Guyon - and she can correct me if I am wrong - believes that God calls some people intercessors and that it is an office in the church such as pastor and evangelist.

I did assume by your quote of 1 Cor. 12.28 and your comment that there are more ministries than preaching that you were agreeing with her that there is such an office of intercession.

I agree that there is no special office of pray-er or intercessor and that all of the body of Christ are to have a developed relationship with the Lord through prayer and the Word, and that we are all called to pray for others.

Blessings,
Ben

If you are talking about it being a ministry gift, then yes, it can be if GOD desires to operate through a person that way, but all of us to some degree already operate in that priestly capacity as Christians.

 

[KingZzub]

So you do think it is a gift?

 

[ARBITER01]

So you do think it is a gift?

Yes it can be a ministry gift, just like a worship leader can have a ministry for that from The Lord.

For instance,..

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

These are ministry gifts in the body of Christ. Notice that the working of miracles is a separate ministry just like gifts of healings is a separate ministry, but they are a ministry just like an apostle or prophet is. They may not be a leadership ministry like those, but they are just as viable and needed.

 

[KingZzub]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by a ministry gift? Thanks.

 

[ARBITER01]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by a ministry gift? Thanks.

A ministry gift is different from a spiritual gift,..

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

[KingZzub]

Obviously Arbiter we cannot look up ministry gift in the Bible as the phrase is not there. And defining something in terms of one thing it is not is not a helpful description. If you asked "elaborate on what an apple is" and all I said was "not an orange" then it wouldn't be a useful description would it!

I am trying to appreciate and understand your point of view and hopefully learn something.

I would use the word office to describe the Ephesians 4.11 gifts, and that terminology is useful to me and the people I communicate with. I like your phrase ministry gift because it emphasises the nature of gift, and the importance of ministry. However, I am not convinced that we are meaning the same thing.

I have not heard the word "ministry gift" before. This is not a value judgment, just a fact. Could you please explain a little more for my ignorant ears?

What makes something a MINISTRY GIFT?

What is in your list of ministry gifts? Why are you telling me that intercession is a ministry gift not a spiritual gift? Do you mean the 1 Cor. 12 gifts by your phrase spiritual gifts or something different?

Thanks for the clarification. If we understand what we mean when we use these phrases it opens the door to intelligent and hopefully edifying discourse.