Is there any reason for all the recent Seventh Day Adventism-related threads in this subforum?

trophy33 · Aug 15, 2023

tall73 said:
They do obviously have a vested interest in such studies.

But they also have a church population that allows for study of different diets within a willing population. It is not always easy to find populations that have vegetarians, vegans, meat eaters, etc. who are usually willing to participate in large numbers. And the churches provide that.

They also have a large network of medical centers which can serve as a base for such research.

Of course, there are also downsides to that sort of population study in the Adventist church. Those who are most interested in health within the context of the Adventist church tend to be vegetarian. Everyone in the congregation was urged to participate, which gives a good sample size. However, it also means the poor outcomes for meat eating in those studies may just reflect that those most committed to health would likely be in the vegetarian camp in an Adventist church.

Studies that focus on populations that don't used processed food can capture another aspect as well. Some studies have been done on hunter gatherers for example, that may show some of the effects thought to do with meat eating may be more just the modern diet, with or without meat.

Now that there is a larger group of carnivore diet adherents I expect to see some longer term studies. Certainly those eating all animal products should see fairly readily if there are lots of harmful effects from such.

When authors are religiously biased, they may prefer data that support their belief and ignore data that do not. Which is a common problem with veganism/vegetarianism.

When such church also creates various schools, institutes or courses "about health" and gives recommendations to various organizations, its not good.

Breakfast cereals, plant oils, sugars and flours in everything destroyed health of millions all over the world. People were told for decades that meat or saturated fat is the problem, while its the plant based junk.

FireDragon76 · Aug 16, 2023

myst33 said:
When authors are religiously biased, they may prefer data that support their belief and ignore data that do not.

Except not all the studies of Adventists weren't done by groups tied to Adventism. Adventists just provide a unique test group, because their lifestyles are relatively similar, whether or not they eat meat.

myst33 said:
And they are not so innocent. For example, a Seventh Day Adventist John Harvey Kellogg who founded a sanatorium, wanted young people to stop having sexual desires so he invented breakfast corn cereals to suppress their hormones. This, and similar plant-based junk foods full of sugar and plant oils, destroyed health of millions of people. Religiously biased nutrition is not objective.

The Secret Ingredient in Kellogg’s Corn Flakes Is Seventh-Day Adventism

America’s favorite processed breakfast was once the pinnacle of healthfulness—and spiritual purity

www.smithsonianmag.com

That's a gross oversimplification of Kellogg's work, in many ways (and the bit about masturbation is just salacious, meant to poison the well, and provides no context for 19th century medical views). His nutritional advice wasn't purely "religiously based", either. He was interested in science. In fact he was disaffiliated at one time by the Adventists because they didn't approve of some of his scientific interests (they accused him of pantheism). So portraying Kellogg as an ideologue for the Adventists isn't accurate.

trophy33 · Aug 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Except not all the studies of Adventists weren't done by groups tied to Adventism. Adventists just provide a unique test group, because their lifestyles are relatively similar, whether or not they eat meat.

I did not claim that all studies were done by groups tied to Adventism. For some reason, you are still trying to change what I say.

trophy33 · Aug 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
That's a gross oversimplification of Kellogg's work, in many ways (and the bit about masturbation is just salacious, meant to poison the well, and provides no context for 19th century medical views). His nutritional advice wasn't purely "religiously based", either. He was interested in science. In fact he was disaffiliated at one time by the Adventists because they didn't approve of some of his scientific interests (they accused him of pantheism). So portraying Kellogg as an ideologue for the Adventists isn't accurate.

He was motivated by his religion to suppress sexual desires by various absurd and dangerous ways.

For example:

“A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision… The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases.”
Kellogg

The History Of Corn Flakes Is Even Worse Than You Knew - The Takeout

Corn Flakes is connected to a dark, controversial piece of the Kellogg family's legacy, which includes a sanatorium and disturbing, anti-sex medical practices.

thetakeout.com

FireDragon76 · Aug 16, 2023

myst33 said:
He was motivated by his religion to suppress sexual desires by various absurd and dangerous ways.

For example:

“A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision… The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases.”
Kellogg

The History Of Corn Flakes Is Even Worse Than You Knew - The Takeout

Corn Flakes is connected to a dark, controversial piece of the Kellogg family's legacy, which includes a sanatorium and disturbing, anti-sex medical practices.

thetakeout.com

His medical opinion is hardly unique in the 19th century. There was a circumcision fad in both Britain and the US. So is this about how Kellogg was somehow uniquely fraudulent, or just typical for his time in many ways?

trophy33 · Aug 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
His medical opinion is hardly unique in the 19th century. There was a circumcision fad in both Britain and the US. So is this about how Kellogg was somehow uniquely fraudulent, or just typical for his time in many ways?

Its not a medical opinion, its a religious opinion.

FireDragon76 · Aug 16, 2023

myst33 said:
Its not a medical opinion, its a religious opinion.

At one time in the UK and the US circumcision was a common medical recommendation that was widespread, and Kellogg's reasoning was hardly unique. The UK just gave it up for the most part, the US did not. Religion had little to do with it (as far as I know, Adventists don't officially require or advise circumcision).

trophy33 · Aug 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
At one time in the UK and the US circumcision was a common medical recommendation that was widespread, and Kellogg's reasoning was hardly unique. The UK just gave it up for the most part, the US did not. Religion had little to do with it (as far as I know, Adventists don't require circumcision).

Its like saying that something was common in Germany during WW2, so some individual we name is "hardly unique". Its a useless argumentation, the claim is not "he is unique", the claim is "he was religiously motivated". Focus on that.

If people, who are strongly religiously motivated, recommend to you what is healthy to eat, its something to verify properly.

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Adventists that do eat meat generally don't drink or smoke, two things known for having negative effects on health. So comparing vegetarian Adventists vs. meat-eating Adventists is actually a good test case, as the groups are otherwise very similar.

Yes but to be fair, you can also screen for alcohol consumption and tobacco smoking in the general population. In addition, some Adventists do not follow the health guidelines, just as some Mormons drink alcohol or coffee.

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
At one time in the UK and the US circumcision was a common medical recommendation that was widespread, and Kellogg's reasoning was hardly unique. The UK just gave it up for the most part, the US did not. Religion had little to do with it (as far as I know, Adventists don't officially require or advise circumcision).

Indeed. I am opposed to circumcision of infants on non-religious grounds. Fortunately I lucked out in that my beloved father, memory eternal, was opposed to the practice.

As far as what the Adventist advice on the subject is, I would be interested in @BobRyan ‘s view on whether or not Adventists should be circumcised. I seem to recall him replying in the negative previously, but I could be mistaken. Also for that matter I should like to hear from @Adventist Heretic.

Adventist Dissident · Aug 16, 2023

The Liturgist said:
Indeed. I am opposed to circumcision of infants on non-religious grounds. Fortunately I lucked out in that my beloved father, memory eternal, was opposed to the practice.

As far as what the Adventist advice on the subject is, I would be interested in @BobRyan ‘s view on whether or not Adventists should be circumcised. I seem to recall him replying in the negative previously, but I could be mistaken. Also for that matter I should like to hear from @Adventist Heretic.

Well thanks to Kellogg that's a reality for most people prior to 1980 or so. I don't think it's a requirement it's very clear that Christ is your circumcision in a New covenant.

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
Well thanks to Kellogg that's a reality for most people prior to 1980 or so. I don't think it's a requirement it's very clear that Christ is your circumcision in a New covenant.

I was not aware Kellogg had pushed for circumcision, merely the cereal consumption, which Graham had also pushed for IIRC.

Adventist Dissident · Aug 16, 2023

The Liturgist said:
I was not aware Kellogg had pushed for circumcision, merely the cereal consumption, which Graham had also pushed for IIRC.

Most Americans are in the United States are circumcised because of Kellogg

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
Most Americans are in the United States are circumcised because of Kellogg

If you have a source on that, that would be very interesting and compelling.

Is there any reason for all the recent Seventh Day Adventism-related threads in this subforum?

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