Is the self eternal?

ananda · May 28, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Well, firstly let me admit that I never looked into it deeply. Secondly, let me confess that it's been about a solid 15-20 years since I've looked into it at all...so if what I say about it doesn't represent it in an entirely accurate manner, I'll ask your forgiveness.

When I learned about Buddha and his journey to enlightenment it was rather inspiring. The concept of desire being the root of suffering and the elimination of desire leading to enlightenment I interpreted as an allegory for the human condition. One of the defining characteristics of humanity is the ability to choose...the ability to deny our basest instincts. That kind of self-control, self-mastery, was appealing in a noble sort of way...especially to hormonally charged mind of a Midwestern white teen male. I actually began to wonder about the process, how to become above such base desires...

It wasn't long after much continual thinking about the topic that I began to realize it sounded pretty awful. What was the end goal? What would I become as i went along such a path? Suffering and desire are very much a part of my humanity...of the human experience itself. The path of Buddhism no longer looked as one of mastery but one of denial.

I began to look at the whole range of human experience as all being equally a part of humanity...my identity...and a real path to enlightenment/wisdom. Mastery being a result of treading each path of human experience...even those that many would deem undesirable. I began to see all knowledge having value and denial of self the worst kind of hypocrisy (granted, denial of self seems to be a strong theme in many religions, christianity included).

I could really go on and on about this, but I won't. That's the short version of my distaste for Buddhism.

I think most, if not all, people continually seek to reduce personal suffering in virtually every choice made ... whether it is through acquiring something (greed/desire), pushing other things away (hatred), or doing things ignorantly (delusion) ... but in actuality, these things increase long-term suffering even though they may provide some temporary relief. As I understand it, early Buddhism teaches that true freedom (nibbana) comes from removing these three poisons and replacing them with their opposites - replacing greed with generosity, hatred with loving-kindness, and delusion with wisdom. IMO, this is the path of personal mastery.

To each their own, of course. Thanks for sharing!

Ana the Ist · May 28, 2015

ananda said:
I think most, if not all, people continually seek to reduce personal suffering in virtually every choice made ... whether it is through acquiring something (greed/desire), pushing other things away (hatred), or doing things ignorantly (delusion) ... but in actuality, these things increase long-term suffering even though they may provide some temporary relief. As I understand it, early Buddhism teaches that true freedom (nibbana) comes from removing these three poisons and replacing them with their opposites - replacing greed with generosity, hatred with loving-kindness, and delusion with wisdom. IMO, this is the path of personal mastery.

To each their own, of course. Thanks for sharing!

You're welcome!

Like I said, I could go on explaining my personal philosophy in much greater detail..but that seems needlessly self-indulgent. It's not what this thread is about, but you asked, so I gave you a super-shortened version

dlamberth · May 28, 2015

ananda said:
IN my understanding, my "self" consists of a combination of five constantly mutable things: matter, sensation, perception, mental objects, and consciousness. Taken together, I perceive my "self".

I've been reading a lot of Teilhard lately, so stuff I come across is going through that filter right now. Using the 5 mutable things that you listed, the development of the conscious self could be seen as a spiritual evolutionary process as one moves from matter forward to consciousness. The question asked is comes after consciousness and what will the future human being look like in that regard.

Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?

And being a Lover of God, where God is the only reality, the "essential self" would be seen as an activity of God. Which than makes the soul totally eternal, not corruptible in any manor, not changeable, infinite in nature and one with the widest reach of the cosmos while shining forth with the light of the Divine.

.

TillICollapse · May 28, 2015

BlueLightningTN said:
There's a hard problem with qualia that we have yet to answer.

Indeed. Actually, I sometimes wonder if qualia is the "purest" form of communication available to us.

TillICollapse · May 28, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
Lol I probably should've looked it up before asking...

I never really listened to anything of his after the Slim Shady LP (which I still think is an amazing album) so I was a little curious.

Yeah I wouldn't call myself a "fan" or anything. I like some of his stuff, some of it I could care less for, depends on my mood

Ana the Ist · May 28, 2015

TillICollapse said:
Yeah I wouldn't call myself a "fan" or anything. I like some of his stuff, some of it I could care less for, depends on my mood

That Slim Shady LP was pretty revolutionary in It's time. That dropped at a time when rap had become more commercial than ever before...more commercial and more derivative. Masta P had come up with a formula of rapping about his excess. He had a string of hits where the message was nothing more than some self-aggrandizing egotistical nonsense. He had more money than you, sexier women than you, better toys than you. It, ironically, made him extremely wealthy...so every rapper was basically doing the same thing (many still do...though I doubt it's as many as in Masta P's day.

Then The SS L.p. dropped and it was completely different. He's rapping about how messed up he is, how broke he is, how he's basically a horrible person and a loser. It was stuff people could relate to. IMO he's lost all that since he became successful, but it's still an amazing album of its day.

Davian · May 28, 2015

Colter said:
He is the universal father, the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. The self knows God by seeking God with a sincere heart.

So, if you can't find this hypothetical god, you obviously were not sincere.

True Scotsman · May 28, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
No, I'll have to check that out as well. Have you seen Disney's Tomorrowland? It's by the same director who made The Incredibles. I just saw it today at the suggestion of some Objectivists at Facebook.

It is quite good! I love its message of optimism and hope.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Not yet but I saw the preview when I went to the new Avengers movie with my son. It looked fantastic. I go to about one movie a year and watch very little TV.

True Scotsman · May 28, 2015

Colter said:
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be insensitive, It's truly shocking to me to hear people articulate their "all in" dedication to a godless life. Generally such people are theoretically out in the world, but to have an intelligent person with so much to offer point blank state their utter disregard for their heavenly Father is as I said truly sad. And the sheer resignation to death, it's such a terrible waste!

I don't disregard things that don't exist. I'm resigned to reality and all of the evidence is that I'll die and be gone. I don't worry about things I can do nothing about. Life's too short.

TillICollapse · May 28, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
That Slim Shady LP was pretty revolutionary in It's time. That dropped at a time when rap had become more commercial than ever before...more commercial and more derivative. Masta P had come up with a formula of rapping about his excess. He had a string of hits where the message was nothing more than some self-aggrandizing egotistical nonsense. He had more money than you, sexier women than you, better toys than you. It, ironically, made him extremely wealthy...so every rapper was basically doing the same thing (many still do...though I doubt it's as many as in Masta P's day.

Then The SS L.p. dropped and it was completely different. He's rapping about how messed up he is, how broke he is, how he's basically a horrible person and a loser. It was stuff people could relate to. IMO he's lost all that since he became successful, but it's still an amazing album of its day.

I actually come from the old school gangsta rap days, and pretty much the West side standards: NWA, Easy-E, Cube, 2Pac, Geto Boys (TX), etc. Snoop of course, Dre, Too Short, Public Enemy, etc. I dug your everyday rappers and hip hop artists also, remember Heavy D haha ? Special Ed lol ? By the early to mid 90's I wouldn't have cared as much about the likes of Masta P, and in fact didn't. Stuff like Digable Planets was my jam. BIG, Puff Daddy, Busta Rhymes, DMX, I could listen to some of their stuff. Could have cared less about Jay-Z. I actually dig Jay-Z now, even some of his older stuff. And of course my musical tastes are all over the map, I'm just focusing on the genre here is all

The formula you brought up was definitely there. And I can see what you're saying about Eminem. It would almost have to be that way though ... not just b/c he's white, but the nature of his voice, stature, etc. He would almost HAVE to put himself down and refer to himself in such ways for it to initially work. I mean his skills are obvious, but still. If he were to start spitting about how pimp he is, and boost his ego above everyone else ... it wouldn't have fit I don't think.

And yeah, he's lost a lot of his edge. I don't think he sold out at all, I do think he played around with his characters a bit too much though.

Nice derail

Davian · May 28, 2015

Colter said:
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be insensitive, It's truly shocking to me to hear people articulate their "all in" dedication to a godless life.

I am not dedicated to a godless life any more than I am dedicated to a leprechaunless life. Are you dedicated to a leprechaunless life?

Generally such people are theoretically out in the world, but to have an intelligent person with so much to offer point blank state their utter disregard for their heavenly Father is as I said truly sad.

I have yet to be presented with a reason to think of this as real.

And the sheer resignation to death, it's such a terrible waste!

Believing otherwise will not make it true.

“All the hundreds of millions of people who, in their time, believed the Earth was flat never succeeded in unrounding it by an inch.” — Isaac Asimov

Ana the Ist · May 28, 2015

TillICollapse said:
I actually come from the old school gangsta rap days, and pretty much the West side standards: NWA, Easy-E, Cube, 2Pac, Geto Boys (TX), etc. Snoop of course, Dre, Too Short, Public Enemy, etc. I dug your everyday rappers and hip hop artists also, remember Heavy D haha ? Special Ed lol ? By the early to mid 90's I wouldn't have cared as much about the likes of Masta P, and in fact didn't. Stuff like Digable Planets was my jam. BIG, Puff Daddy, Busta Rhymes, DMX, I could listen to some of their stuff. Could have cared less about Jay-Z. I actually dig Jay-Z now, even some of his older stuff. And of course my musical tastes are all over the map, I'm just focusing on the genre here is all

The formula you brought up was definitely there. And I can see what you're saying about Eminem. It would almost have to be that way though ... not just b/c he's white, but the nature of his voice, stature, etc. He would almost HAVE to put himself down and refer to himself in such ways for it to initially work. I mean his skills are obvious, but still. If he were to start spitting about how pimp he is, and boost his ego above everyone else ... it wouldn't have fit I don't think.

And yeah, he's lost a lot of his edge. I don't think he sold out at all, I do think he played around with his characters a bit too much though.

Nice derail

Lol I'm totally with you on the west-coast gangsta rap. I listened to everyone you listed and then some (when I listen to Westside Connection, I get a....). I listened to Masta P back when he first came out because of songs like ghetto d (you know, the song where he basically describes how to cook up crack cocaine).

My tastes are pretty far and wide as well though.

And thanks, couldn't have done it without the help of some awesome posters!

SkyWriting · May 28, 2015

ananda said:
Do you propose that the essential "self" is eternal, and what is it exactly that is eternal?

Our souls came from a place that time doesn't exist, and will return there.
So...people say "eternal."

Davian · May 28, 2015

SkyWriting said:
Our souls came from a place that time doesn't exist, and will return there.
So...people say "eternal."

How do you know this?

GrimKingGrim · May 29, 2015

TillICollapse said:
I actually come from the old school gangsta rap days, and pretty much the West side standards: NWA, Easy-E, Cube, 2Pac, Geto Boys (TX), etc. Snoop of course, Dre, Too Short, Public Enemy, etc. I dug your everyday rappers and hip hop artists also, remember Heavy D haha ? Special Ed lol ? By the early to mid 90's I wouldn't have cared as much about the likes of Masta P, and in fact didn't. Stuff like Digable Planets was my jam. BIG, Puff Daddy, Busta Rhymes, DMX, I could listen to some of their stuff. Could have cared less about Jay-Z. I actually dig Jay-Z now, even some of his older stuff. And of course my musical tastes are all over the map, I'm just focusing on the genre here is all

Nice derail

I kinda pegged you for a classic bEAST Coaster, but you have some in there. I'm 90% East Coast Hip Hop, And a little bit of everything else nowadays. I think East Coast shriveled up and died after Jay retired and it wasn't really the same afterward. And even with people like A$AP Rocky, Joey, Logic, Action Bronson, Ghostface, and NaS still doing it there will never be another boom like 90's East Coast. Especially with people like Chance, KiD CuDi, Lupe Fiasco, King Kendrick, Tyler, Earl, Drake, Big Krit, Danny Brown, Childish Gambino, Atmosphere, and a lot more just representing just all over the place. It's certainly an interesting era for Hip Hop right now, but too bad the digging you've gotta do to find the good stuff is extensive.

GrimKingGrim · May 29, 2015

SkyWriting said:
Our souls came from a place that time doesn't exist, and will return there.
So...people say "eternal."

Other people say Oblivion.

This thread sure makes me seem like I'm the captain of a death cult ironically.

TillICollapse · May 29, 2015

GrimKingGrim said:
I kinda pegged you for a classic bEAST Coaster, but you have some in there. I'm 90% East Coast Hip Hop, And a little bit of everything else nowadays. I think East Coast shriveled up and died after Jay retired and it wasn't really the same afterward. And even with people like A$AP Rocky, Joey, Logic, Action Bronson, Ghostface, and NaS still doing it there will never be another boom like 90's East Coast. Especially with people like Chance, KiD CuDi, Lupe Fiasco, King Kendrick, Tyler, Earl, Drake, Big Krit, Danny Brown, Childish Gambino, Atmosphere, and a lot more just representing just all over the place. It's certainly an interesting era for Hip Hop right now, but too bad the digging you've gotta do to find the good stuff is extensive.

I'd say that when I was really into it, I was def mostly West coast, with some cherry picked East stuff.

I don't think you're gonna see another "boom" in a noticeable way, because rap and hip-hop is now standard "pop". I mean, that Pete Davidson joke on the roast of Bieber to Ludacris summed it up awesomely lol, "You might know Ludacris from your mom's, "Now That's What I Call Music CD" lol. It's hard and edgy origins just aren't there as much anymore. Guys like Kanye have beef with Taylor Swift ? I'm not saying I miss the days of wearing hood ornaments around your neck and slamming Dre for wearing lipstick, I'm just saying it's not the same lol. Which actually helps to make it the interesting era you point out, imo ... because it doesn't take itself as seriously anymore. The genre can parody itself now and it's cool, it's fine to do. Andy Samberg can do it and it's both funny and actually can have a decent beat. Thugnifficent and Ganstalicious haha ... need I say more ?

I love all types of music, and there is no particular type that I go digging to find the good stuff in, unfortunately. Depends on the day of the week, but I'm usually all over the map.

I will say though, that Eli Porter is the current king of pop (tries to say with a straight face).

Eudaimonist · May 29, 2015

Colter said:
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be insensitive

Okay, I'll take your word for it.

It's truly shocking to me to hear people articulate their "all in" dedication to a godless life.

I understand.

In a way, it is shocking to me to hear believers in a heavenly afterlife disregard or devalue the only life that actually exists (this one), and pine for something that doesn't exist, treating this life as a means to a non-existent end, instead of the complete end-in-itself that it should be. That does seem like a terrible waste.

So I can understand your reaction.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Ana the Ist · May 29, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Okay, I'll take your word for it.

I understand.

In a way, it is shocking to me to hear believers in a heavenly afterlife disregard or devalue the only life that actually exists (this one), and pine for something that doesn't exist, treating this life as a means to a non-existent end, instead of the complete end-in-itself that it should be. That does seem like a terrible waste.

So I can understand your reaction.

eudaimonia,

Mark

I don't know if you're a fan of the Mad Max trilogy...but even if you'd never seen any of them before I'd still recommend seeing the new one. Great movie.

Colter · May 29, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Okay, I'll take your word for it.

I understand.

In a way, it is shocking to me to hear believers in a heavenly afterlife disregard or devalue the only life that actually exists (this one), and pine for something that doesn't exist, treating this life as a means to a non-existent end, instead of the complete end-in-itself that it should be. That does seem like a terrible waste.

So I can understand your reaction.

eudaimonia,

Mark

We agree with each other on this issue of how many Christians seem to have such a poor view of this life, that they are simply waiting for the next, that man is hopelessly stupid and evil. I don't take that view at all. While I do believe our world was betrayed by a high administrator, a molesting spiritual pedophile, leading to a great deal of confusion that is still being mitigated, I'm content with salvation, I take it for granted as I am a child of God. Therefore, this life, my family and friends are greatly important to me. I live it much like you and Scotsman have promoted, only I am dedicated to seeking the will of God in my life and I have the conviction that after my death, I will awake on the shores of the next world having gained nothing except the fact of salvation. From there I will make my way to more worlds as I travel through continued spiritual and intellectual growth and the regiment of experience that my heavenly Father has mapped out.

Is the self eternal?

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