Is the rapture a lie?

Dale · May 25, 2018

seventysevens said:
Harpazo is the original Greek word in scripture which was translated into Latin as raperium , rapiemur . rapio and then translated into English as rapture by the Protestants , they all mean the same thing referring to the sudden unexpected snatching away, catching away ,caught away suddenly by force and taken to another location
St. Jerome translated the Geek verb harpazo that Paul uses in 1 Thess 4:17 into the latin verb rapiemur back in about the year 400 and later on that latin verb was translated into the English as “caught up” or “caught away”
1 Thess 4:17 ” Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
In verse 18 we are to take comfort with the words he is teaching

Book of Acts 8:34-40
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing
The story of Phillip baptism of the eunuch , read all verses 34-40 and notice that the words “caught away” in verse 39 are in the Greek writing of Acts 8:39 is Harpazo – identically exactly the very same word used in Thessalonians where Paul speaks of the rapture of the whole church.
in a split second as they come up out of the water Phillip is raptured -caught away -harpazo and taken to a city 30 miles away in a mere split second of time., God snatched Phillip and placed him in a city 30 miles away .

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)
Definition: I seize, snatch

HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize);

It is the action the Lord uses to take people from one place to put them in another place - In 1Thess 4 it is to be place of Jesus presence for eternity

You mention St. Jerome.
St. Jerome did not believe that Christians were going to be "raptured" or taken out of a world where political events were still taking place.

You point to a passage in I Thessalonians. When the modern notion of a "rapture" was first invented around 1830, this wasn't the passage that people who believed in it pointed to. They pointed to Revelation Chapter 13, which is the woman standing on the moon. That doesn't fit either.

Also, when the "rapture" was first invented, the idea was that only the most worthy Christians would get the special privilege of being "raptured" before the Tribulation.

redleghunter · May 25, 2018

Rukado said:
In other words: "The Rapture is not a lie. Here's a verse that has nothing to do with a rapture to prove it."

If I were a post-trib believer, I'd lean on this verse. But, I'm not post-tribber and it's stupid to base any doctrine on a single verse (it doesn't matter if that same verse/passage is repeated somewhere else). No where else does the Bible say anything that looks remotely like it supports a post-trib rapture. The pre-tribber is absolutely without excuse, with no verses that even remotely look like they support a pre-trib view.

The references to the stars is symbolic, not literal. Sending his angels to gather the elect is in a symbolic portion of Jesus's discourse, and there's no reason to take it literally any more than taking literally the meaningless impossibility of stars that the stars could fall. Christ's messengers (angels) will gather the saints into the church. After the tribulation, the New Covenant church is finally and fully established.

What's your view on how Christ returns to earth.

seventysevens · May 25, 2018

Dale said:
You mention St. Jerome.
St. Jerome did not believe that Christians were going to be "raptured" or taken out of a world where political events were still taking place.

You point to a passage in I Thessalonians. When the modern notion of a "rapture" was first invented around 1830, this wasn't the passage that people who believed in it pointed to. They pointed to Revelation Chapter 13, which is the woman standing on the moon. That doesn't fit either.

Also, when the "rapture" was first invented, the idea was that only the most worthy Christians would get the special privilege of being "raptured" before the Tribulation.

This is too funny - try doing REAL research and you will find that what you said is false
St Jerome translated the Latin Vulgate - Look it UP!
and the rest of what you said is rubbish - thats what you get when you don't do a real study

Erik Nelson · May 25, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
A. Begin Matthew 24 {7 year "tribulation"} = Only the Father Knows the time (verse 36)
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
{the second coming}
44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Second Coming:
Matthew 24: 29-31
Rev. 19:11-16

The Precious Promise:
John 14:
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN and receive you to Myself,
that where I am, there you may be also.

B. SIMULTANEOUSLY:
1 Thess. 4: 13-18
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.(spirit bodies)

the resurrection of dead in Christ: 1 Thess. 4: 13-18; John 5:25-30

the rapture, the snatching of the Church: 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 (mid-tribulation=3.5 years)

the reunion of saints, meet in midair / heaven with Jesus; 1 Thess. 4: 13-18

C. the removal of God the Holy Spirit:
2 Thessalonians 2:
6 And you know what (Who) restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth
and bring to an end by the appearance of His (Second) coming

D. all the above simultaneous and instantly in man-time

ALL after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 has ENDED.

=======

Possible Time Line BUILT on Matthew 24:

1. Begin the birth of the "Church Age" of Grace...Pentecost...Acts 1 + 2

2. Jesus promises to be with us in Spirit until the "end of the age" Matthew 28 end

...ascends/descends from the Mount of Olives...Matt 20:20; Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11

3. Pre-Tribulation "Birth Pangs"...NOW!...Matthew 24: 4-8

4. Begin TRIBULATION...first 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years
...rise of the anti-christ + REBUILD the TEMPLE! = his appearance in that TEMPLE...Matthew 24:9-20,22

...>WHEN it begins? TIME Unknown!<...

5. Rapture and Second Coming...finally to a throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings . Revelation 20:6

6. Begin GREAT TRIBULATION...Last 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years...leading up to Armageddon...Matthew 24:21-27

7. Begin the Millenium Reign...Satan Bound...Revelation 20

8. Planet Earth and unsaved wicked inhabitants destroyed by fire. 2 Peter 3

8. New Heavens + New Earth + New Jerusalem = eternal spiritual realm...Revelation 21

think that's a great synthesis & summary!

still think that the Second Parousia was manifested physically, in bodily form, via Christian emperor Constantine, who defeated persecuting pagan opposition by the miraculous sign of the Cross he witnessed on the eve of the battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 AD. The Great Tribulation was those persecutions of Decius & Diocletian, the despots who removed the last vestiges of Republican Rome, whose Laws and Pax Romana had long protected Christians to a remarkable degree. Ending the semi-Republican Principate, they brought about the despotic Dominate to rule unchecked as Divinities. Diocletian's 1st year became the official year 1 of his Anno Diocletiani era.

But after him, during the Christian Byzantine empire of Constantinople and the medieval heyday of Christendom, all the Saints & Martyrs of the early Church were alive in the hearts of Christians. They "ruled with the Church" (Rev 20:4-6) as the Patron Saints of this, that, and every other thing.

Today, after the Millennium, in the End Times (Rev 20:7-9), people are forgetting all those Patron Saints, whose names & memories (and perceived "spiritual presences" communed with during earnest prayer) may be waning. Supra-natural, spiritually animating, influences may have "shifted" to "God & Magog", at least in some "net force" sense (F

Marvin Knox said:
Thank you for the links.
I am familiar with their position.
IMO it does not fly.

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." Matthew 24:29-30
When did this happen?

If, as you say, "you read Matthew 24 without any preconceived ideas, not accepting what men are saying" -- "immediately after the tribulation of those days" does not mean over 2000 years after the tribulation.

One possible explanation & interpretation, is that those words allude to & reference Isaiah 13:10; 34:4.

They are not to be taken literally, but rather cue the audience to think "Isaiah 13:10; 34:4".

They are still very powerful Apocalyptic references, but they point to Isaiah, not earth's physical terrestrial atmosphere.

From Bible-Gateway, the point is to imply "coming Judgement" [on Jerusalem in 70 AD] not actual physical atmospheric phenomena:

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible

24:29 Jesus here echoes Isa 13:10 and probably the Greek version of Isa 34:4; cf. similarly Joel 2:10,31. The passages in Isaiah graphically depict judgment on specific empires but Jewish people also saw them as presaging global judgments. People in antiquity expected cosmic signs before catastrophic events such as Jerusalem’s fall; Jewish apocalyptic literature expected them especially before the end.

Erik Nelson · May 25, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
A. Begin Matthew 24 {7 year "tribulation"} = Only the Father Knows the time (verse 36)
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
{the second coming}
44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Second Coming:
Matthew 24: 29-31
Rev. 19:11-16

The Precious Promise:
John 14:
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN and receive you to Myself,
that where I am, there you may be also.

B. SIMULTANEOUSLY:
1 Thess. 4: 13-18
1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.(spirit bodies)

the resurrection of dead in Christ: 1 Thess. 4: 13-18; John 5:25-30

the rapture, the snatching of the Church: 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 (mid-tribulation=3.5 years)

the reunion of saints, meet in midair / heaven with Jesus; 1 Thess. 4: 13-18

C. the removal of God the Holy Spirit:
2 Thessalonians 2:
6 And you know what (Who) restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth
and bring to an end by the appearance of His (Second) coming

D. all the above simultaneous and instantly in man-time

ALL after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 has ENDED.

=======

Possible Time Line BUILT on Matthew 24:

1. Begin the birth of the "Church Age" of Grace...Pentecost...Acts 1 + 2

2. Jesus promises to be with us in Spirit until the "end of the age" Matthew 28 end

...ascends/descends from the Mount of Olives...Matt 20:20; Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11

3. Pre-Tribulation "Birth Pangs"...NOW!...Matthew 24: 4-8

4. Begin TRIBULATION...first 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years
...rise of the anti-christ + REBUILD the TEMPLE! = his appearance in that TEMPLE...Matthew 24:9-20,22

...>WHEN it begins? TIME Unknown!<...

5. Rapture and Second Coming...finally to a throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings . Revelation 20:6

6. Begin GREAT TRIBULATION...Last 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years...leading up to Armageddon...Matthew 24:21-27

7. Begin the Millenium Reign...Satan Bound...Revelation 20

8. Planet Earth and unsaved wicked inhabitants destroyed by fire. 2 Peter 3

8. New Heavens + New Earth + New Jerusalem = eternal spiritual realm...Revelation 21

think that's a great synthesis & summary!

still think that the Second Parousia was manifested physically, in bodily form, via Christian emperor Constantine, who defeated persecuting pagan opposition by the miraculous sign of the Cross he witnessed on the eve of the battle of Milvian Bridge in 312 AD. The Great Tribulation was those persecutions of Decius & Diocletian, the despots who removed the last vestiges of Republican Rome, whose Laws and Pax Romana had long protected Christians to a remarkable degree. Ending the semi-Republican Principate, they brought about the despotic Dominate to rule unchecked as Divinities. Diocletian's 1st year became the official year 1 of his Anno Diocletiani era.

But after him, during the Christian Byzantine empire of Constantinople and the medieval heyday of Christendom, all the Saints & Martyrs of the early Church were alive in the hearts of Christians. They "ruled with the Church" (Rev 20:4-6) as the Patron Saints of this, that, and every other thing.

Today, after the Millennium, in the End Times (Rev 20:7-9), people are forgetting all those Patron Saints, whose names & memories (and perceived "spiritual presences" communed with during earnest prayer) may be waning. Supra-natural, spiritually animating, influences may have "shifted" to "God & Magog", at least in some "net force" sense (Fnet = F1 - F2 from physics, here used to symbolize "Angelic Spiritual influences" (+) opposed by "Demonic influences" (-)).

Kaon · May 25, 2018

seventysevens said:
You are aligned with malignant nonsense and not truth which is why you cannot refute it you just complain

Ok.

ViaCrucis · May 25, 2018

seventysevens said:
From verse 3 to the rest of the chapter

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Jesus begins to describe the things and events that lead up to His return

I notice you seem to have deliberately ignored that the question the disciples asked was "When will these things be, and what are the signs of Your coming, and the end of the age?" The "these things" they are talking about are the destruction of the Temple, as Jesus had literally just told them that the Temple would be destroyed. That's what they are asking, they were asking when that would happen. They also include "What will be the signs of your coming, and the end of the age" because, no doubt, they could not conceive the destruction of the Temple as anything other than a massive eschatological moment.

But read, really read the Olivet Discourse. Don't just parrot, don't pull some verses from it out of context. Read the entire thing in the context it is given.

-CryptoLutheran

Erik Nelson · May 25, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
Do you see anything there about being collected or gathered into heaven there? I certainly don't. It says from one end of heaven to the other, they are gathered from the distant place to the distant place, from one side of the world to the other. Nothing about being taken into heaven, however.

Please show that.

-CryptoLutheran

From a Preterist perspective, all of the Apocalyptic allusions to Isaiah and Joel symbolized the Judgement of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and the Second Parousia references to the ultimate victory of Christianity in the 4th-5th centuries AD.

At that time, all of the various local & regional Christian groups were unified into the Orthodox Catholic Church, "gathered together" into the thousand-year long medieval heyday of Christianity during the Byzantine empire (until the 15th century AD).

ViaCrucis said:
I'll just leave this here:

"But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death. For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says “everything” has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him. And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all."

-CryptoLutheran

I understand that to mean:

Crucifixion [c.30AD]
Second Parousia [Rev 19 = Constantine in the 4th century AD] & Christian Millennium [Rev 20 = medieval Church + Byzantine empire]
Doomsday & Divine Eternity [Rev 20:10+ = future]

ViaCrucis · May 25, 2018

Micah888 said:
And this is a reference to the Rapture.

Christ said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" in John 14. Then we read in 1 Thess 4:16,17:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Did you happen to notice that in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 it doesn't say anyone is going into heaven? In fact, it says the opposite.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven"

-CryptoLutheran

Erik Nelson · May 25, 2018

Thatsallfolks said:
Does this mean also that those who have already died will be risen? What about those already in hell or heaven?

1 Cor 15:52 = Rev 20:4 ?

Erik Nelson · May 25, 2018

seventysevens said:
Correct
I Thess 4:17 epeita hemeis oi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha [suddenly caught up] en nephelais eis apantesin tou kuriou eis aera kai houtos pantote sun kurio esometha

I Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up [harpagesometha] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

harpazo is more often used as it is easier to pronounce and spell it - being a root word

= Rev 20:4 ?

redleghunter · May 25, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
My emphasis was on the being taken up into heaven part, not the timing part--show that.

Since you asked about location. There is the marriage feast of the Lamb which takes place in Heaven.

Revelation 20: NASB
5And a voice came from the throne, saying,
“Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.” 6Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.

7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”

Then a two verses down we see those clothed in white linen accompanying Christ at the second coming as conquering King:

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Which looks similar to this:

Jude 1: NASB
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

ViaCrucis · May 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
Since you asked about location. There is the marriage feast of the Lamb which takes place in Heaven.

Revelation 20: NASB
5And a voice came from the throne, saying,
“Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.” 6Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.

7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”

Then a two verses down we see those clothed in white linen accompanying Christ at the second coming as conquering King:

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Which looks similar to this:

Jude 1: NASB
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

In both cases, however, the direction is downward, from heaven. Not toward heaven. The saints in heaven are given linens, who then accompany the Lord at His coming in glory; herein the marriage supper of the Lamb has come.

The language here is from, not toward. Down, not up.

-CryptoLutheran

Randy777 · May 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
That one has perplexed me a bit and why I sympathize with your pre-trib view. All other views have the rapture after horrifying events unlike the world has ever seen. I would gather everyone would have Matthew 24, Luke 21, Revelation and many OT prophet books open telling everyone "this is what comes next and now we see Babylon burning so the Lord is not far off."

Those that follow the beast will be shocked and surprised by the sudden appearing of the lord to give victory in favor of the saints. Those who are wise and know their Lord will understand what is taking place. The followers of the beast who state ,"who can make war with the beast", will come to a sudden end as Jesus destroys the beast's armies.
The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. The beast is destroying everyone in his rage. He is considered unstoppable. The world worships and follows him. (not meaning the saints)
suddenly it comes to a end in favor of the saints of the most high God but not by human power.

As Jesus taught immediately following the distress of those days
The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Kaon · May 25, 2018

I was repeatedly accused of coming from a scriptural disingenuous place. I want to say I am truly not offended. But, for onlookers: you deserve a detailed answer on this. I wouldn't normally do this, but I consider this doctrine to be dangerous enough to affect the soul - since if it doesn't happen it could cause a loss of faith.

Whenever in doubt, always follow [The Word of] God. The Word of God is Christ - that is the literal word of God. Here is what He said about the end:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" And Jesus answered and said unto them,

Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Daniel 12:9-12

(Antichrist is already here to set up the Abomination that causes Desolation: then we have to endure 1335 days after that. THEN resurrection)

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

(Why is Christ mentioning the Sabbath in the FUTURE - as if He expected us to remember and follow that commandment?)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(Why are there elect that need saving if they are going to be raptured? Because they are the Wise Ones of Daniel 11; there is no rapture except AT resurrection.)

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

(everyone should note this; Christ's arrival will be when He plants one foot on the ground. and one on the sea. We will know when He arrives - the ONE time He comes back.)

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

(How clear can this be?)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation (Age) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

(This is not about the rapture, and it isn't about being ignorant about His coming. He says,)

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:3-51

Emphasis mine, words added by me are parenthetical.

If any man contradicts the Word of God, then that man is a liar. And, if any man says that one should follow a man over Christ's own words, then that person is also a liar. Christ Himself said nothing about coming back an intermediate time, and delivering saints, going back, and then coming back in "The Day of the Lord." We have to endure.

The rapture doctrine is an intoxicating entity. Believe it at your own risk.

Randy777 · May 25, 2018

redleghunter said:
There's actually two according to Revelation 20:

Revelation 20: NASB
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It was well understood and taught in regard to the resurrection of the saints Jesus would send out His angels to gather the elect from the ends of the heavens.(The resurrection of us all)It would be on the last day. It would be a bodily resurrection. And those saints alive on earth on that day would be caught up to the Lord and clothed with immortality. There are saints noted in the 1st resurrection therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.

redleghunter · May 25, 2018

ViaCrucis said:
And, yes, the Greek word there is θλῖψις (thlipsis) the same word used throughout the New Testament to refer to tribulation.

That's true. However we both know context matters as you and I see the soul sleepers and Annihilationists try to make words mean the exact same thing everywhere regardless of context.

The context of a literal tribulation at end times banks on the context of Matthew 24:21:

21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

redleghunter · May 25, 2018

mark kennedy said:
The Resurrection (aka translation/rapture) has always been associated with the return of Christ and I believe happen at the same time. However, the Scripture give you a little room there, there could be as many as 7 years between the initial taking up of the saints and the wedding feast of the Lamb when all the tribulation saints are added to their number. This is one topic I see no reason to be dogmatic about, we got it wrong the first time Jesus came and we are probably way off in our thinking now. I believe Christ is coming in power and glory and will destroy the armies of the wicked while raising his beloved Church that will reign with him a thousand years. That power that raised Christ from the dead is available to us by faith that we might die to sin and rise to walk in newness of life, we have only to take the promise on faith. What we will experience on that day is nothing to compare to the majesty and joy we as believers will experience when corruptible shall put on incorruptible and we see him as he is.

I will not contend with fellow believers on this issue, as much as I do feel it's an important doctrinal discussion. The resurrection/translation/rapture, whatever you want to call it is inextricably linked to the return of Christ. Regardless of how many ways there are to do the exposition of the requisite texts.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Amen brother. I agree no need for the usual food fights which happen on these eschatology threads.

Such wisdom above by God's Grace .

Marvin Knox · May 25, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
One possible explanation & interpretation, is that those words allude to & reference Isaiah 13:10; 34:4.
They are not to be taken literally, but rather cue the audience to think "Isaiah 13:10; 34:4". They are still very powerful Apocalyptic references, but they point to Isaiah, not earth's physical terrestrial atmosphere. From Bible-Gateway, the point is to imply "coming Judgement" [on Jerusalem in 70 AD] not actual physical atmospheric phenomena:

I can see where a person could force that explanation into the text if he really felt he had need to.

But it's not IMO a natural interpretation.

Nor does it explain the following concepts.

Marvin Knox said:
"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

Again - when did this happen?

Is it natural to say that these things (still future even now) will be "immediately following" the tribulation - when they are at least 1948 years after the events which happened in 70 A.D.?

redleghunter · May 25, 2018

Randy777 said:
It was well understood and taught in regard to the resurrection of the saints Jesus would send out His angels to gather the elect from the ends of the heavens.(The resurrection of us all)It would be on the last day. It would be a bodily resurrection. And those saints alive on earth on that day would be caught up to the Lord and clothed with immortality. There are saints noted in the 1st resurrection therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.

A poster was asking about location. I gave it. In this context it would be the marriage supper of the Lamb with us in Heaven.

Now I'm not pegging the events in chronological order leading up to that. But we can easily conclude the feast happens after everyone is either raised or translated.

Then again we should note day 6 of creation had a whole lot jammed into it, why should we think differently about the Day of the Lord?

Is the rapture a lie?

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