Is the phrase "Reformed Methodist" a contradiction in terms?

[ClementofRome]

I would really like your thoughts on this subject. I am theologically reformed (yes, a Calvinist ) and a Methodist. My father and I were discussing this fact (he is a retired UMC DS) and his comments were that the UMC is broad enough to house any number of theological positions (even NO theological position....and I added "even non-Christian theologies?").

Are there any other "Reformed Methodists" in this Forum? If so, how do you reconcile the possible contradiction in terms?

For those of you who are not reformed (and I am assuming that this would be the vast majority of you on this forum), is the phrase "Reformed Methodist" a contradiction in terms? Am I welcome in the UMC?

For those of you who are ordained...would/should/could being a "Reformed Methodist" be a barrier to ordination?

I apoloize for the mass of questions, but I am addressing various folk in the above.

 

[Banana Phone]

Sorry, but could you give a brief run-down of the definition of a Reformed Methodist? Also, could you elaborate on the comment "that the UMC is broad enough to house any number of theological positions"?

Thanks!

 

[ClementofRome]

Sorry, but could you give a brief run-down of the definition of a Reformed Methodist? Also, could you elaborate on the comment "that the UMC is broad enough to house any number of theological positions"?

Thanks!

Certainly.

I am a 5-point Calvinist...TULIP (gasp!....well, really 4.5...see below). Let me preface by saying that I am not here to debate the relative merits of Calvinism v Arminianism....OK. It is NOT my purpose to sway anyone to my position here, not to sling mud at anyone and most certainly not to offend. I realize that I am in the minority on this forum and I approach the subject with much humility.

Since Banana Phone asked, I believe that scripture teaches that humans are radically depraved (see, even I beleive that the T should be an R, but RULIP does not make such a neat acryonym! ). I also believe in the unconditional election of believers. I believe that though Jesus sacrifice of atonement was sufficient for all it is only effectual for the elect (see, I even move slightly away from the classic understanding of "L"). I believe in the irresistable pull of the Holy Spirit upon believers, not only allowing them to become believers, but causing them to become believers. I believe in the perseverance of the saints or as our baptist friends would put it, "once saved, always saved." Now combine that with someone who is a member of the UMC and you have a "Reformed Methodist." Or, maybe I should be called a "Calvinist Methodist" (see George Whitfield!)

As for the comment that my Dad made about the UMC being broad enough to house many theological positions, I interpret this to mean that the UMC, though guided by its theological history and mission and discipline toward a particular theological distinctive, would welcome and invite a Christian into the fold who happens to hold a different theological position than one that is classically "Methodist." The question, with which I followed up, was a bit facitious. I would expect that heretical theologies would not be particularly welcome (though I am sure what is considered "heretical" would also be open to debate). However, as a believing Calvinist, I do not consider a believing Arminian theology to be heretical and I trust that vice versa would also be the case.

Does this help?

 

[Banana Phone]

Thanks for the explanation.

I think you're welcome in the UMC. I think it is particularly open to other theological beliefs.

I was thinking about the idea of predestination, and this sort of goes along with your post, so see if this makes sense.

The idea of predestination makes sense if you think of it in the following terms. God gives us free will, but also knows whether or not we will choose right or wrong. In effect, God already knows who will get into heaven. In giving us free will, that is like setting us up to choose right or wrong, thus by deciding to give us free will, it is sort of like decided whether or not we will end up in heaven.

This doesn't really seem to me to be the "classic" definition, but I think it works for my understanding. I just hope I wasn't too confusing.

 

[herev]

The UMC is very pluralistic. Wesley desired that people study the scriptures for themselves and then interpret them based on the church tradition, their own experience and reason (WEsley's Quad). WE don't require that people adhere to any doctrine to join the church. Every memeber must take membership vows which involve accepting Christ as redeemer, but beyond that, everyone is welcome to join in!!!
AS to ordaination--that could be a problem. I'm sure your dad could give more of a glimpse into the Board of Ordained Ministry and which direction they happen to be leaning this quadrenium, but I believe that Calvinist doctrine would be outside of the scope of what they board is looking for. Of cousre, I've not been before them yet--that'll be next year for my first time.

 

[herev]

having said all of that
there is something you should know.
There ACTUALLY IS a REFORMED METHODIST CHURCH
http://members.aol.com/augusteen/ReformedMethodist.html

http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_553.html

http://www.crisisinthelcms.org/ermphotos.htm

and perhaps the most helpful

http://www.ukans.edu/heritage/um/asbury~1.html

tommy

 

[ClementofRome]

Thanks a bunch, herev...I should have known that you would come to the rescue!
FYI, I think that even though Mom retired this year, she will still be serving on the Board of Ordained Ministry for another couple of years. You will enjoy meeting her if you have not done so already.

 

[Try]

I would say that the UMC's broadness runs from Plegius to Jakob Armanius, but not so far as to Calvin. Sorry, but I am more or less an absoluteist on free will.

 

[oneiric]

I don't know. That seems as silly as saying your a theistic atheist.

 

[ClementofRome]

I don't know. That seems as silly as saying your a theistic atheist.

Obviously a theist and an atheist are contradictions in terms, but were Wesley and Whitfield THAT far out of fellowship with one another? To say that it is as silly as theistic atheist or vice versa, suggests that Methodism and Calvinism are two distinct religions. Now I have heard that accusation by some fairly radical Calvinists, but I just don't buy it. I believe that God's grace is large enough to extend to both camps, even though one or the other or both are clearly wrong in their understanding of soteriology. Chances are that we are both right and both wrong to a certain extent. See herev's signature line and also WesleyJohn's sig line....they both give me hope.

Thanks for the comment.

 

[Try]

Obviously a theist and an atheist are contradictions in terms, but were Wesley and Whitfield THAT far out of fellowship with one another? To say that it is as silly as theistic atheist or vice versa, suggests that Methodism and Calvinism are two distinct religions. Now I have heard that accusation by some fairly radical Calvinists, but I just don't buy it. I believe that God's grace is large enough to extend to both camps, even though one or the other or both are clearly wrong in their understanding of soteriology. Chances are that we are both right and both wrong to a certain extent. See herev's signature line and also WesleyJohn's sig line....they both give me hope.

Thanks for the comment.

I would say that Calvinists and Armanians can live together in the same denomination: the Baptists and the Anglicans have done it since the Reformation, and United denominations such as the United Church of Canada (Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregational), the Church of South India (Anglican, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian, and Reformed), and the Uniting Church in Australia (Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregational) have been quite successful. However, the name "Methodist" has come to imply Armanianism, the Calvinistic Methodists having joined the Presbyterians, and in my neck of the woods most Methodists tend to be rather anti-Calvin and Augustine.

If I were you I would join the Presbyterian Church USA or the United Church of Christ and work for union with the UMC.

 

[oneiric]

Methodist was a derogatory term given to Arminians/Wesleyns by the Calvinists. So, there's my logic.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

I am glad someone already mentioned the Reformed Methodists of Wales. One of the greatest preachers of the 1900s- Martyn Lloyd-Jones was a Calvinistic Methodist, as was George Whitfield and the hymn writer Augustus Toplady. I myself am a Calvinistic Anglican. But I have great love for Charles and John Wesley and look forward to seeing them in heaven, if I can see them through the glare that is. I believe they will be much closer to God's throne than this poor miseable sinner and the brightness reflecting from the front row will be quite blinding.

 

[JM]

The United Church of Canada is not a good example. They have no doctrinal standard...at all. They are mostly Arminians. I did some karate training in a UCC a while back and found a shinto shrine in one of the upper rooms, the minister didn't see a problem with using 'other' faiths because they're all valid.

 

[Plan 9]

The UMC is pluralistic, IMO. Although I doubt if this alone makes me a Calvinist, I lean far more toward a belief in the perseverance of the saints than do the majority of Methodists, insofar as I know, and this is kicker: according to my Book of Discipline, we are never to allow any difference of doctrine or practice to become a source of divisiveness in our congregations. As someone who may be going against the flow a bit here, it would be wrong for me to trumpet my modified OSAS belief and urge others to change their theology to match mine.
The same is true of variant worship practices, eg. some United Methodists speak in tongues and that's perfectly fine...as long as they don't pressure others to do so, or speak in tongues themselves during a church service.
Now, I'm no expert, but this is my understanding from my reading.

Nevertheless, Street Preacher, you'll be thrilled to know I have yet to see a Shinto shrine in any UM church, though. LOL