Is the Moon Really Bigger on the Horizon?

[Avonia]

While sitting in Starbucks recently, I overheard a conversation about “Mary Magdalene the Prostitute.” It came from two people who read their Bible for hours at Starbucks. One is a pastor.

I was taken back to the moment as a teen when I realized this was probably not true. I hadn't even questioned it up to that point.

I'm reminded of other myths that somehow remain unchallenged, even though there is abundant and easily understood evidence to the contrary. Here are a couple fun ones.


Myth: There is no gravity for astronauts because they are in space where there is no gravity.

Truth: They are in continuous free fall. From their position in orbit around the earth, gravity is about 90% of what it is on the surface of the Earth.


Myth: The moon looks bigger near the horizon because the atmosphere magnifies it.

Truth: If anything, it's a bit smaller. The reason it looks bigger is frame of reference – the Ponzo Illusion. To test this, make a caliper out of a paper clip and hold at arm's length when the moon is on the horizon and when it's overhead.


I remember my first exposure to people, including John Shelby Spong, who challenged assumptions that had been deeply seeded by my religious community. Whether or not Spong and others are closer to the truth, I loved these moments. Just like I loved it when the moon myth was unraveled from me.

But these moments can be highly unsettling for others. And I've wondered about the roots of this. Sophia, Victor, BFA, Stormy and many others have challenged assumptions that for some SDAs have gone unchallenged.

I'm curious what the “unraveling of belief” has been like for you. Or what you have witnessed with those close to you.

 

[Laodicean]

While sitting in Starbucks recently, I overheard a conversation about “Mary Magdalene the Prostitute.” It came from two people who read their Bible for hours at Starbucks. One is a pastor.

I was taken back to the moment as a teen when I realized this was probably not true. I hadn't even questioned it up to that point.

yes, where did the idea come from that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute? Was this the same Mary who had a one-time act of adultery with Simon, the Pharisee? Maybe it came from the fact that Jesus had to free her seven times from the devil? Meaning, she was a repeat offender in whatever her problem was? I don't know.

Anyway, when you realized that the prostitute concept was probably not true, what did you replace that idea with, if any?

I'm reminded of other myths that somehow remain unchallenged, even though there is abundant and easily understood evidence to the contrary. Here are a couple fun ones.


Myth: There is no gravity for astronauts because they are in space where there is no gravity.

Truth: They are in continuous free fall. From their position in orbit around the earth, gravity is about 90% of what it is on the surface of the Earth.

I didn't know this. Checked it out, and you are right Interesting!

Myth: The moon looks bigger near the horizon because the atmosphere magnifies it.

Truth: If anything, it's a bit smaller. The reason it looks bigger is frame of reference – the Ponzo Illusion. To test this, make a caliper out of a paper clip and hold at arm's length when the moon is on the horizon and when it's overhead.


I remember my first exposure to people, including John Shelby Spong, who challenged assumptions that had been deeply seeded by my religious community. Whether or not Spong and others are closer to the truth, I loved these moments. Just like I loved it when the moon myth was unraveled from me.

But these moments can be highly unsettling for others. And I've wondered about the roots of this. Sophia, Victor, BFA, Stormy and many others have challenged assumptions that for some SDAs have gone unchallenged.

I'm curious what the “unraveling of belief” has been like for you. Or what you have witnessed with those close to you.

The only belief I hold as unravelable is the belief that God loves me and died to save me, and that I now have a second chance at eternal life. Probably some atheist might want to challenge that belief, but that's okay, I've been through those types of argument ad nauseam, and the belief continues to hold certain and unravelable.

Every other belief, for me, is subject to raveling and reweaving and ... oops... unraveling and reweaving again. Some reweavings presently seem immune to unraveling again, but who knows....

 

[Avonia]

The only belief I hold as unravelable is the belief that God loves me and died to save me, and that I now have a second chance at eternal life. Probably some atheist might want to challenge that belief, but that's okay, I've been through those types of argument ad nauseam, and the belief continues to hold certain and unravelable.

Every other belief, for me, is subject to raveling and reweaving and ... oops... unraveling and reweaving again. Some reweavings presently seem immune to unraveling again, but who knows....

And the important distinction you point out is that some beliefs are bridges to greater knowing - the belief as a container is well-matched to the truth it's suggesting. But some beliefs end up not having a lot of resonance with what we eventually come to know.

The opportunity of belief is a progression to greater knowing. The liability is occlusion.

Thanks for the contribution Lao.

 

[StormyOne]

I'm curious what the “unraveling of belief” has been like for you. Or what you have witnessed with those close to you.

For me it has been liberating at times... other times its kinda of disconcerting when I stop and think about how much energy I invested in a belief that was untrue... After that feeling passes (the one where you feel like you've been hit in the head with a big heavy pillow), the feeling of liberation and peace takes its place.....

 

[Sophia7]

But these moments can be highly unsettling for others. And I've wondered about the roots of this. Sophia, Victor, BFA, Stormy and many others have challenged assumptions that for some SDAs have gone unchallenged.

I'm curious what the “unraveling of belief” has been like for you. Or what you have witnessed with those close to you.

I remember several of those moments throughout my life. Most were not too unsettling. One that was very unsettling to me was when I began rethinking the context of Daniel 8:14 a few years ago. Perhaps if my husband's job hadn't been at stake, it wouldn't have been so unsettling. I had questioned other aspects of Adventist doctrine before that and disagreed with some things, but I had always considered them minor issues. Many Adventists that I've talked to--even some pastors--don't consider the IJ all that important, but I couldn't write it off as just a minor disagreement. "Unraveling" is a good word to describe my experience of sorting through Adventist beliefs. The IJ thread seemed to hold many other doctrinal threads together, and the remaining threads were not distinctively Adventist.

 

[Sophia7]

yes, where did the idea come from that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute? Was this the same Mary who had a one-time act of adultery with Simon, the Pharisee? Maybe it came from the fact that Jesus had to free her seven times from the devil? Meaning, she was a repeat offender in whatever her problem was? I don't know.

The idea came from Catholic tradition due to the conflation of several biblical passages regarding Mary Magdalene, the woman caught in adultery, the anointing of Jesus' feet by Mary of Bethany, and the anointing of Jesus' feet by the sinful woman at Simon's house. Ellen White's writings were influenced by such conflation; she combined Luke 7 and John 12 into one story (in Desire of Ages, chapter 62, "The Feast at Simon's House") and thus identified Mary of Bethany as the woman who had lived a sinful life in Luke 7. She said that Simon the Pharisee had led Mary into sin, and her account in DA has given many Adventists the idea that Mary the sister of Lazarus was the woman caught in adultery in John 8 as well as Mary Magdalene.

The Bible doesn't say that either Mary of Bethany or the woman in Luke 7 had engaged in adultery with Simon (either one time or more than one time). Also, it doesn't say that Jesus had freed Mary Magdalene seven times from the devil. It says that He had cast out seven demons from her (Mark 16:9; Luke 8:2). They all could have been cast out at once, so we shouldn't assume that "she was a repeat offender in whatever her problem was." The Bible certainly doesn't say that her problem was adultery or prostitution.

 

[Joe67]

As long as we keep the moon under our feet, then we will not lift up our heel against our master.

Isa 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. KJV

Joe

 

[sentipente]

I'm curious what the “unraveling of belief” has been like for you. Or what you have witnessed with those close to you.

It has been liberating for me. Those around me have had curious responses because they respect my intelligence and cannot label me as a kook.

 

[AzA]

I was reading something today which argued that the integrated nature of Adventist belief makes adherents resist full investigation of it -- x-belief impacts y-belief and both impact z-belief, and thus investigation is a high-impact sport; please wear a helmet.

I have found this to be a valid way to look at the system. It is appealing because it is so comprehensive, providing answers from education to future forecasting. And if you read it a certain way, it can feel internally consistent, just like other fundamentalist systems.

I was about 16 when I went through the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe (the pre-2005 edition) and, in the course of reading it, reviewed the explanation of the lifestyle fundamental. The fundamental didn't outlaw jazz, jewelry, card playing, and other things, but the explanation in the book and Messages to Young People did. So I wanted to know a bit more about the Biblical basis for that.
I went through the chapter, and picked out the "jewelry" section, and wrote down all the cited texts, and then looked them up one by one and read them in context, and wrote myself up a little summary of what I had found.

Was I floored.

I had expected to find a clear link between what the Bible said on the subject, and what I had grown up being taught and what was said in MYP and the Nichols et al explanation in SDAs Believe... But I didn't find such a link. That was a very quiet Sabbath afternoon on my own in my grandparents' house, & a very quiet explosion. I did not discuss my findings with them because I knew what their position was and what it symbolized for them. I did not go out and begin to hunt for jewlery to wear; it was not that important to me to wear or not wear. But I did not any more take for granted that there was a sound basis for every doctrine whether consistently taught/applied in my division or not.

I have had other moments on other issues that have been more "So cool" than "Oh crap..." but the cumulative effect is quite significant. Some peers react with respect, some with interest, some with fear.

 

[Avonia]

I really appreciate the contributions to this thread. So nice.

 

[Avonia]

It says that He had cast out seven demons from her (Mark 16:9; Luke 8:2).

It's interesting to look at the transition in some cultures from viewing disease as something that is caused either by gods/demons to a more scientific view. Sumerians are an interesting example of the former - and the incantations in the Udug Hul texts for specific diseases.

So this is an interesting take on this thread. I suspect that much of the casting out of demons had little to do with demons - well, the floating around "spirit" kind. What's tragic is when people were proclaimed to be "demon possessed" because of disease, physical characteristics that had nothing to do with disease, or even metal illness. Of course, we still do a bit of that today.

One way to think about it is regardless of the source of the "demons" those who "cast them out" are healers. To me, one of the most amazing things Jesus did was help people understand that healing was possible. He got a lot of things that were stuck, unstuck.

 

[Avonia]

I went through the chapter, and picked out the "jewelry" section, and wrote down all the cited texts, and then looked them up one by one and read them in context, and wrote myself up a little summary of what I had found.

Was I floored.

These set us up for self-reinforcing myths. Jewelry is bad. You FEEL bad when when you wear it. Therefore, you were correct. Jewelry is bad.

Theaters were like this for me. I remember the first time I went to a theater and watched a movie. I felt horrible - like I had traded my ticket to Heaven for a stupid movie. OK, the movie was actually pretty good. But still.

For some reason, that programming really stuck. To this day, I grab my guardian angel's hand when entering a theater and drag it in - just to make sure nobody is left outside I may need in the theater. (This is a SDA inside joke.)

 

[Avonia]

For me it has been liberating at times... other times its kinda of disconcerting when I stop and think about how much energy I invested in a belief that was untrue... After that feeling passes (the one where you feel like you've been hit in the head with a big heavy pillow), the feeling of liberation and peace takes its place.....

Of course, those around you still holding that belief may ascribe that "feeling of liberation and peace" to the Devil. They may even try to suffocate you with that big heavy pillow.

 

[StormyOne]

Of course, those around you still holding that belief may ascribe that "feeling of liberation and peace" to the Devil. They may even try to suffocate you with that big heavy pillow.

true.... more often than not I have heard things like you have become too educated or that I have studied my way "out of the truth." I usually don't respond because those statements make no sense....

 

[sentipente]

true.... more often than not I have heard things like you have become too educated or that I have studied my way "out of the truth." I usually don't respond because those statements make no sense....

It is always amazing how quickly Adventists become anti-education.

 

[Avonia]

It is always amazing how quickly Adventists become anti-education.

This is such an awkward tension. An "emphasis on education" and a fear of knowledge.

 

[StormyOne]

This is such an awkward tension. An "emphasis on education" and a fear of knowledge.

quite true.... gonna borrow this one...

 

[AzA]

Theaters were like this for me. I remember the first time I went to a theater and watched a movie. I felt horrible - like I had traded my ticket to Heaven for a stupid movie. OK, the movie was actually pretty good. But still.

For some reason, that programming really stuck. To this day, I grab my guardian angel's hand when entering a theater and drag it in - just to make sure nobody is left outside I may need in the theater. (This is a SDA inside joke.)

And it's quite a funny one.

I think the first movie I went to with friends from school -- and I think heaven had a chuckle at my expense -- was Jumanji. Oh Lord, save my soul; the ambivalence was incredibly because of my community's judgment on film and "the theater" vs "home screenings".

I can't remember if I'd also gone to see Toy Story with my heathen brother before that or afterwards. Talking dolls? Voodoo.

 

[AzA]

true.... more often than not I have heard things like you have become too educated or that I have studied my way "out of the truth." I usually don't respond because those statements make no sense....

This is true to my experience as well.

 

[SkyWriting]

...
1. Myth: There is no gravity for astronauts because they are in space where there is no gravity.

Truth: They are in continuous free fall. From their position in orbit around the earth, gravity is about 90% of what it is on the surface of the Earth.


Myth: The moon looks bigger near the horizon because the atmosphere magnifies it.
Truth: If anything, it's a bit smaller. The reason it looks bigger is frame of reference – the Ponzo Illusion. To test this, make a caliper out of a paper clip and hold at arm's length when the moon is on the horizon and when it's overhead.
<snip>
I'm curious what the “unraveling of belief” has been like for you. Or what you have witnessed with those close to you.

Many myths are based on factual observations.

After watching a MythBusters marathon of 10 shows one lazy Sunday, I came to the conclusion that they were just playing dumb to create controversy.

Both of your "Myths" are just the same.
Myth? There is no gravity for astronauts because they are in space where there is no gravity.

Reality:
There is no gravity for astronauts because they are in space where there is no perception of gravity.
Gravity is everywhere.
Astronauts are unaware of any gravity until they hit a planet or something. Almost the same thing as "no gravity."

Myth:
The moon looks bigger near the horizon because the atmosphere magnifies it.
Reality:
The moon is does indeed seem up to 10% bigger (when it's close, compared to when it's at it's farthest part of it's orbit) and this 10% difference is most noticeable near the horizon both because the atmosphere squashes it a bit flatter then, and because it's easier to compare it to other objects when it is low.

So the myth busters are themselves busted once again.
I find that most Myths are based on facts.
Rare is the myth that isn't.