Is the kingdom of heaven in our universe?

rturner76 said:

Where is heaven? Is it a place or a state of being etc? Where is Jesus' physical body residing right now? Does the Father choose a physical form or does he just communicate through Christ in heaven? Will he just be present in our abiding souls?

I feel like that kid asking impossible questions in Sunday school.

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I read heaven and earth as meaning everything

heaven + earth = everything (Axiom 1 - God created everything that is required for the Divine Purpose - I added a qualifier just in case)

rewriting heaven = everything - earth

Nuance 1 - Is the sea part of the earth in axiom 1? Yes, it is the land vault of water (below the firmament)
Nuance 2 - Is the atmosphere part of the earth? No, fowls are assocociated with heaven.
Nuance 3 - God is trans temporal (Omniscient and Eternal)

rewriting = heaven is the atmosphere (nuance 1 and 2), the time space continuum (all that can be observed earth excluded) and what ever hyperspatial mechanisms needed for the Divine Purpose.(nuance 3 - only beings of higher dimensions can move forward and backward in time and not be bound with the speed limit of light and being outside of the ever increasing entropy makes one eternal)

Nuance 4 - God is Love (Ominbenevolence)
Nuance 5 - God is Perfect
Nuance 6 - God is all Powerful (Omipotence)
Nuance 7 - The Word is Necessary concept (the universe and man in their present characteristics cannot exist without Jesus)

No entity can go before the presence of God. Revelation indicate the 24 elders were not worthy only the Lamb (vision of heaven). The high priest was allowed to enter the presence of Holy of Holies after ritual cleansing. Man is destroyed in the presence (scrutiny?) of God. There is also no evidence/indication of extra-universal incursions into this universe.

The options to explain man's inability to meet the Maker are God
A) destroys man in front of Him on purpose. Nuance 4 imples no.
B) destroys man in front of Him by accident always. Nuance 5 imples no.
C) destroys man in front of Him because it is unavoidable. Does this contradict nuance 6? God can do anything, except contradictory things (i.e married bachelor). The existence of optimum man and the optimum universe are impossible. Only an optimally design is possible (multivariable with multi-functionals). Nuance 7 supports this idea as Jesus is the only Way. Jesus is the means by which the universe was created. God can not come to this universe in any substantial way or it might disrupt the functioning of the universe because it is too fragile.

Is the kingdom of heaven in this universe? There is a part of heaven that needs to be separate from this universe. I believe it is where the King of Heaven dwells.

rturner76 said:

By this statement, it would seem you equate science with idol worship[. Do you really believe 99.9% of the world's Christians are idolators by believing in a spherical world?

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Rejection of Biblical teachings in favour of contradictory worldly teachings is the basis for idolatry, of false idol worship. Is this not also your understanding?

rturner76 said:

I know it's pointless trying to convince a flat Earther that the world is a sphere but I think it's good to expose those people to some information to challenge the notion that the Earth is flat.

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Nobody was born a flat earther, ppl become flat earthers because they consider it a ridiculous notion and attempt to disprove it. During that process they become flat earthers, and many find God! The FE movement has also been a revivalist movement.

rturner76 said:

Do you believe man has gone to outer space?

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There is insufficient evidence of outer space. It is also unscriptural (unless you interpret "the outer darkness/ darkness outside" and similar verses as suggesting ppl will be catapulted to the outer edges of the supposed cosmos lol.)

rturner76 said:

How do you discredit real-time satellite imagery?

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Real time satellite imagery is discredited by numerous means. Good one here, the boys find their way into the Himawari files and real time deception techniques:
Himawari Hoax Dismantled [ArcherSage, Paul On The Plane] – The Flat Earth Podcast

rturner76 said:

Is it a massive conspiracy? Who is behind it? How has the conspiracy not been exposed?

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The devil runs the world. Who do you think runs the banks, the governments, the pharmacies, the energy industries? When he lies he speaks his native language. He prowls around as a lion seeking whom he may devour. All of the cities of the world he offered, and Jesus didn't dispute the veracity of the offer. Are you ready to believe, or do you think the devil purveys Darwinian evolution theory then retires? By no means! Everything we believe needs to be falsified. The devil is at war with God, he wants to destroy His image and replace it with his own - read your Bible and open your eyes.

rturner76 said:

Is the moon or the sun also flat or are they spheres?

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My table is flat but the lights in my ceiling are spheres. Does that make my table round?

rturner76 said:

When I searched for images of flat Earth there were only drawings and computer graphics. Why are there no photos or videos of a flat Earth?

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What? Every photo you see of the earth is planar. Also artists always use plane perspective. Cartographers and surveyors eg Captain Cook and Columbus, Mason and Dixon, used planar methods. Standing bodies of water always lay flat. Disprove that essential principle of science. Where is the measurable curve on an ocean, a lake or a swimming pool? Where is it on the salt flats or a football field? There is no curve.
Earth Curve Calculator
There are hundreds of video experiments showing that we see much much further than we should on a ball of 25k miles circumference.

Here's a vid by an engineer who's done some great work pioneering infrared filters on long range photography, where he describes his FE awakening and shows some experiments. Line of sight tech, EM waves, RF, radio, optical propagation prove FE.

rturner76 said:

lease help me understand how the Earth can be flat.

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I thank God for your receptiveness, because it is 'that idea' which, more than any other, has been demonised and associated with the worst kind of retardation. Brother, your job is to try to disprove it, and do so scientifically, not irrationally. Just be prepared to follow the truth where it leads.

rturner76 said:

EDIT: I actually have been on international flights and seen the curve of the earth out the window on the hrizon. It is a subtle curve but it's there for everyone to see. Should I not believe my eyes? Am I part of the conspiracy and telling a lie that I've seen the curve of the Earth?

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If you put a hula hoop around your head, each point is more or less equidistant from your eyes. It may appear that you are looking at subtle curvature, but it cannot be curved up or down, because it is 360 degrees around you! If it dropped away, what would you see when you turned around? The 'top scientists' such as deGrasse Tyson readily admit that at commercial flight altitudes no curvature should be visible to the naked eye. The horizon is horizontal, hence the name. But it shows how easily we can be be deceived. Walk in faith not in sight, and don't let sun set on quarrel.
Flat Earth Perspective Expained-Why the Sun Appears to Rise and Set

Much of the great FE research of the last decade has been suppressed and removed from the main platforms, but it's still around, just need to search a little harder. If you're serious, run through these 200 proofs earth is not a spinning ball (scroll down for vid, also book for sale).
200 Proofs - Flat Earth Research

Or maybe you prefer edutainment - lots of good facts in this song, catchy tune too.
https://www.[bless and do not curse... and do not curse]ute.com/video/BLSWc1hRgdal/

rturner76 said:

No, my understanding is that the Bible has a message from God, some history, metaphors, parables, prophecy, and other things that do not include aeronautics, physical, or any other hard science.

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No Biblical cosmology? Lol, how convenient.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (Exo 20:4)

At least listen to the likes of Prof Michael Heiser, who is not a flat earther, but is honest enough to admit the Bible is a flat earth book. "Let it be what it is," quoth he.

rturner76 said:

WHerever the movement came from, it should be sent back. It is admirable to have a faith that allows one to believe what they read before what they see with their eyes.

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You don't see motion or curvature. The fool on the hill sees the sun going down but the eyes in head see the world spinning round, as the song goes.

rturner76 said:

This is where your argument loses all credibility. There is VERY sufficient evidence of outer space travel. Telescopes that are traveling millions of miles away from the Earth are sending back images in all wavelengths infra-red and the whole spectrum.

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Rubbish. Those telescopes convert the raw data into the pretty images you see using Hollywood CGI software. Stellar distances are totally unproven. Look it up.

rturner76 said:

ou don't believe it because you choose not to. Your argument isn't based on any tangible repeatable evidence. Not just drawings and strange theories with no proof.

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I believe it because the Bible says it's so. And because true science - observation and experiment - confirms it.

rturner76 said:

Again, pure fantasy. NASA imagery has never been proven to be falsified. There are techniques to determine whether a photo or video has been altered and no evidence has ever been uncovered that photos or videos have been doctored..

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Lol, even the guy who came up with the 'Blue Marble' images of earth freely admits they're CGI'd up. The Apollo 11 (Rev 9:11 anyone?) footage is obvious B-grade movie stuff.

rturner76 said:

he devil doesn't control anything, he can only tempt people. The devil does his work but God is the one actually in control.

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None of Galileo's 'proofs' are accepted even by the establishment today. The devil tempts ppl to believe the lie, and God permits it. You really don't believe the Bible, do you. Or at best just cherry-pick as it suits.

rturner76 said:

Tell me, why would the moon be round, the sun and all of the other planets are round. Earth should be sperical. Oh wait, you probably believe there are no other planets. How silly of me.

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Hello? I illustrated the logical fallacy 'All cats are black, this is black therefore...' And what do the 'planets' ie wandering stars have in common with earth anyway? Nada, just lights in the sky.

rturner76 said:

In elementary school we learn you can't see the curve of the Earth because it's so massive. This is not rocket surgery.

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First you can see the curve, then it's too small to measure lol. If it curves around a ball of 40,000 km in circumference, then there should be a curve at every point. And there are many ways that curve could be measured. Every time it's tried, comes back negative. Bottom line: we see much further than we should. Just like the famous earth motion experiments - Michelson-Morley, Michelson-Gale, Sagnac etc, null results.

rturner76 said:

I tried the youtube video and I couldn't make it past 5 minutes. There was so much junk science and I just can't use my time up listening to these strange unprovable theories.

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Junk science? You'll find that navigation, weapons and flight systems are all designed up on flat non-rotating earth models. It would be infeasible otherwise, impossi-ball.

rturner76 said:

Why has no flat earther gone to the edge of the world and taken pictures of the edge? That would prove it once and for all.

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Well, if they would allow free travel south of the 66th parallel. Flat earthers have been lobbying, but the old Antarctic Treaty, made by a bunch of enemies during the cold war and never contravened, to protect a few penguins, keeps enquiring minds out. There are no north-south flight circumnavigations of the earth. Why not?

rturner76 said:

That fact kills your whole argument.

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He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (jn 12:25)

I know it's asking a lot of someone who's obviously never questioned these things. Maybe start with an 'easier' one, like the milk lies of evilotion, the official 9/11 narrative, global warming or the moon landing. Vaya con Dios, I'll stop fouling up your pretty thread now.

rturner76 said:

I just want to address two things. One is this statement. I could see the curve from the airplane but you can see it from the ground, it's too gradual a curve. If you could see the curve of the Earth from the ground, the Earth would be a fraction of the size it is.

THe other thing is nobody takes every page of the Bible literally. We know that society had different rules at that time. For example the Levitical laws of Moses. Women who commit adultery would be stoned to death if we took the Bible literally. Disobedient kids should be executed etc.

Oh one last thing is that you should be able to reach the end of the earth on every side no North South East and West should all have an end where you fall off but yet only going to Antarctica in the south will yield photographic/video proof.

PS I think we ran everybody out of this thread a while ago. lol

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You're right, they've all dropped their stones and left, the old men first, then the young ones. But I don't condemn you.

Here you go, quick and easy, a classic globe disproof in under 3 minutes.

A Picture that Proves the Earth is Flat - Re-uploaded

timothyu said:

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

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Yes, those are for seasons, days and years and signs. But if you practice astrology or if you knew the power of the lost ancient astrology that you could use to make very accurate predictions you are doing DIVINATION. If you are observing the signs to let you know just the time and season as God intended, there is no harm in that.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

rturner76 said:

I usually believe my eyes, and my eyes have seen footage of the Earth and galaxy. I believe the Bible on spiritual and behavioral matters but for physics, chemistry, and biology, I believe modern science.

An example of junk science would be the flat Earth theory. God created all things including the scientific method.

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I am sure the earth can be viewed like a globe or FLAT and segmented into realms and looking like one of those "orange peel" examples. Maybe the illusion lies in seeing things as a globe, but earthly science cannot yet explain that because we don't really know the deeper truths about "gravity" and "space" and God's creation of all of this.

1---The Kingdom of God/heaven has come (Matt 12:28),

comes (Luk 11:2, Matt 19, Mark 1:9,15: 10:15 ), and

will come (I Cor 15:24 Matt 6:33).

Jesus talked about the kingdom of heaven often.

2---There are at least 3 heavens - 3 layers:

Earth's atmosphere:
Gen 7:23 "And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark."

Since there's a 3rd heaven then there has to be a 2nd heaven.

2Co 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven"

rturner76 said:

I didn't totally understand what was going on in the picture but I'm sure they proved some sort of anomaly was there. The next step is to repeat the experiment multiple times and look for the same results.

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There are literally hundreds of those experiments around social media. You can do it yourself. Go to a local bay, get your buddy to stand on the other side (>6km away) with a flashlight (at night) or a mirror (if sunny), set up your tripod with a good zoom camera (height <4ft), and find the light. Using Google maps, plug the numbers into an 'earth curve calculator', and then try to explain why you see something that should be obscured by the curve of the earth. It's been done at very long distances by optical, laser, microwave, radiowave, any line of sight method you like. Hundreds of times, result consistently disproves curvature hypothesis.

rturner76 said:

I would also need to see the equation they were using to determine where the light should have been.

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Jump on the earth curve calculators online, it's uncontroversial basic trigonometry. These calcs are easy, and done by non-flat earthers. Nobody disagrees with the equation.

rturner76 said:

I appreciate that you do not judge me harshly about what I believe are facts. I can say I will take the debate more seriously and not dismiss your theory offhand. Having said that, It will be very difficult to change my belief on this.

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I understand, it seems patently unbelievable and ludicrous. But many have been converted by trying to disprove it, including 'earth scientists' such as civil engineers and surveyors, as well as many other very intelligent ppl.

rturner76 said:

I will like you suggested, look at disproving flat Earth theory and what information I would need to present that a flat Earth believer would accept.

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Good for you. I hope you can explain how a vacuum and non-vacuum can co-exist without a solid barrier between them, violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics of pressure equalisation. Or in layman's terms why earth's atmosphere and everything in it doesn't get sucked into space.

Also, ever considered why the night sky in mid-summer isn't completely different to the night sky in winter? Think about it:
* ****************** *
* I ----- O ----- I *
* ******************** *

Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. (Josh 10:12b)

rturner76 said:

Where is heaven? Is it a place or a state of being etc? Where is Jesus' physical body residing right now? Does the Father choose a physical form or does he just communicate through Christ in heaven? Will he just be present in our abiding souls?

I feel like that kid asking impossible questions in Sunday school.

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The Father has an outward image also, this was shown in Genesis 1:26-27. We look like Him, and He looks like us. Jesus is His express Image (per Hebrews).

There are 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one behind a veil we cannot see. The sky around our earth is also called a heaven, but it is not the heavenly dimension I speak of. Heaven (not the sky) is where God and the angels live, in a different dimension.

The known universe is actually a part of our earthly material dimension, that's not where God's Heavenly abode is. Here's why...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

That in red proves the existence of that other dimension, and especially the fact that this material world did not create itself. That verse proves that this material world creation we live in did not originate from material matter; matter was created by something outside of the material universe. We call that something our Heavenly Father and His Son and The Holy Spirit. God is a Spirit per Apostle John (John 4).

Thus the heavenly dimension is one of Spirit, not material physical matter. In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. By that Paul was showing the two dimensions.

However... many brethren don't understand this, and some brethren refuse to leave their carnal fleshy thinking about it; they simply don't understand the difference between flesh and spirit. They tend to believe that Jesus' resurrection was to His old flesh body, just because He told His Apostles a spirit has not flesh and bones and they saw Him have, and favor that explanation only while disregarding the following by Paul...

1 Cor 15:42-47
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

Paul is directly pointing to our Lord Jesus' resurrection with that "last Adam made a quickening spirit", and as "the second man is the Lord from heaven".

Jesus' flesh body was raised and transfigured to the heavenly dimension type, which is a spiritual body. It retained the marks of His crucifixion.

Davy said:

The Father has an outward image also, this was shown in Genesis 1:26-27. We look like Him, and He looks like us. Jesus is His express Image (per Hebrews).

There are 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the heavenly one behind a veil we cannot see. The sky around our earth is also called a heaven, but it is not the heavenly dimension I speak of. Heaven (not the sky) is where God and the angels live, in a different dimension.

The known universe is actually a part of our earthly material dimension, that's not where God's Heavenly abode is. Here's why...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

That in red proves the existence of that other dimension, and especially the fact that this material world did not create itself. That verse proves that this material world creation we live in did not originate from material matter; matter was created by something outside of the material universe. We call that something our Heavenly Father and His Son and The Holy Spirit. God is a Spirit per Apostle John (John 4).

Thus the heavenly dimension is one of Spirit, not material physical matter. In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. By that Paul was showing the two dimensions.

However... many brethren don't understand this, and some brethren refuse to leave their carnal fleshy thinking about it; they simply don't understand the difference between flesh and spirit. They tend to believe that Jesus' resurrection was to His old flesh body, just because He told His Apostles a spirit has not flesh and bones and they saw Him have, and favor that explanation only while disregarding the following by Paul...

1 Cor 15:42-47
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

Paul is directly pointing to our Lord Jesus' resurrection with that "last Adam made a quickening spirit", and as "the second man is the Lord from heaven".

Jesus' flesh body was raised and transfigured to the heavenly dimension type, which is a spiritual body. It retained the marks of His crucifixion.

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An excellent response. Hope you won't mind me adding my two cents here.
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things
which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are
not seen are eternal.
The kingdom of heaven is entered by obedience to the Will of the Father.
It is a question of sovereignty. Does King Jesus reign over our heart?

2 Peter 1:
10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election,
for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the
eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.