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God never commands murder. What makes murder murder, is the spirit in which it is done. It is also the same with sabbath keeping/breaking.
The Spirit in which it is done decides the morality.
What God judges as 'right' is moral, what God judges as wrong is immoral.
If you decide to get subjective about that, then your argument/debate is with God, and I am betting that in the end God will be found right and all those who argue/debate with Him will be found wrong.
When Samuel chopped up the ratbag king who Saul was supposed to have slain, it was not murder, it was righteous culling.
If I keep sabbath simply because it is a regulation and so I do it in order to please God for the sake of finding favor with Him, then I have reduced it to a ceremony and I may as well bow before statues as well as statutes. If however my motive is to honour Him because I want to please Him for His sake (eg love Him) which realy comes through understanding His character as revealed in Jesus, and I happen to (ignorantly) get the day wrong, I still please Him because of my 'motive'.
I hasten to add, that for those who understand the sabbath issue, there is a correct/right day, it is The seventh day of the week and no amount of philosophy or debate can make it right if we trample it underfoot in favor of a more convenient day.
The 'morality' always lies in the motive/Spirit/attitude.
As for sabbath keeping being an Israelitish command? Aren't we all of Israel who prevail with God? Doesn't the new jerusalem have those twelve names on the gates?We are talking about spiritual realities here, not genetic realities. Those who are saved are all of the 'Israel of God'. There is no respecting of persons or discerning of race in the kingdom of heaven, but WHY in one kingdom would God have one group of people doing one thing and another group doing another? It does not add up. Read the end of Isaiah 66 and you can see that God says "all flesh". How can that be misstranslated? Then again, how is it that so many misstranslate the word "REMEMBER"? See Malachi 4:4 there is a direct pointer to sabbathkeeping here, not only the numbers, but the opening word, and then research the verse in it's entirety. Now, research the chronology of this instruction. Are we trampling the wicked under foot yet? Clearly this speaks of a time yet future (though soon)
It is 'moral' to those who understand, it is just another day to those who don't. Read Hebrews 4, focus on verse 4. The word used in these scriptures is DAY, and PLACE(in time) It is an appointment, but those who make the appointment will have faith and those who do not enter in will not enter in because of unbelief. Let God be true and men liars, because it is God's Own word which declares that those who do not enter in do not enter because of unbelief. Now belief is tied in with 'faith', and 'faith' with 'trust' and 'trust' with 'relationship' and 'relationship' with 'morality' because the focus becomes on attitude/motive/Spirit.
To some of you this will make sense, to others it will be obscure.
I stand corrected, Murder was not the propper word to use. Since we were speaking about the morality of 10 commandments, "thou shalt not kill", are the words presented as a moral commandment. So killing should be immoral.
My agument is, "saying the ten or the sabbath is "moral", is subjective and unscritptually sound.
In peace
CRIB
Yes it was. The 'ministry of death' and the 'ministry of condemnation' written with letters engraved on stone...This is a commandment of God written in stone to all of mankind.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
God did enter into covenant with others besides nations, however.quote=Jimlarmore;43140915]First off lets be very clear here. In the Bible we never find God making a covenant with any nation but Israel, period.
Where does the Bible speak of this spiritual nation of Israel?So, that being the case we need to ask ourselves , if the Israel spoken of in the future prophecies is the literal nation of Israel or what we call the "spiritual nation of Israel"?
believe it is the "spiritual nation of Israel" because of what happened in the New Testament times at the end of the 70 week prophecy of Dan 9:24. What we see is that the literal nation of Israel is rejected as the keepers of the oracles of God and God turning now to the gentiles:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
Acts 13:44-47
42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43
Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45
But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Isa 49:6
This is the proclaimation of the gospel being sent to the gentiles and the official rejection of Israel as a favored nation. One may say well so if the literal nation of Israel was rejected then the new covenant given in the new testament is for the gentiles,right? What we find is the new covenant was not made with the gentiles but with Israel as well.
That's because the writer of Hebrews was quoting Jeremiah.Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8:8-13 are nearly identical.
You forgot verse 13:The new covenant spoken of in the new testament was prophecied to be given in the Old Testament. The only law that was known at the time of Jeremiah was the ten commandments and it was this law that was behind this new covenant. The new covenant didn't have to have the ceremonial laws anymore and the laws would be written on the heart not on stone.
31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:8, 13
32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Heb 8:9
33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:10, 10:16
So we can conclude that God gave this new covenant to Israel. So the new covenant is laws on the heart not stone. So how does this stack up against the idea of what the new covenant is to you? If God had turned to the gentiles then it had to be "spiritual Israel" that this new covenant was given to, and the new covenant was God's laws written on the heart.
The first covenant, which you say is the ten commandments and I tend to think is the whole Mosaic law, is obsolete.13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The covenant with Abraham was not the covenant with Israel at Siani. Abraham was not a Jew. Do I need to tell the story of his children?29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham's seed, through which all the world was/ is blessed is Jesus! (not Jacob)Here we have it clearly spelled out that if we be in Christ's we are Abraham's seed and heir of the promise. The promise to Abraham was that the entire world would be blessed thru his seed which became "Israel".
Here we see that a spiritual person is in control of the Holy Spirit. Conversely if a person does not have Holy spirit, the ways of God are foolish to him.13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Paul is speaking of unsaved Jews, obviously not in the church.3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel.
Again he is not speaking of Israel as being the church.30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
This says we are heirs together, and sharers of the promise together. It certainly does not say Gentile Christians become Israel. It again shows that they are not one and the same thing.6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Romans 14 addresses the question of Jewish laws too.19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
well there you have what you have asked for Ricker. The reason I said; "To some of you this will make sense, to others it will be obscure" is because it fits the same context as "having eyes yet not seeing or having ears yet not hearing." Immediately Jim knew what that 12 gate reference meant and his mind was stirred to remember such scriptures as he quoted. This is because he was willing to receive the truth that is apparent here, however, there was enough obscurity for the unwilling to fasten on to and extend the debate thus inviting supporting scriptures. As those who see are clearly aware, the context of Malachi 4:4 and the obvious chronology should dismiss every dispute. (but of course it will not) and this is why Hebrews 4:4 fits well on the back of this scripture, because we have the reference to faith in entering in/receiving. Of course, there is always room to wriggle with God because He does not take our free will from us (while we live in this vessel) and so some will contend that this is written to Hebrews only and not for gentiles. HOWEVER, if you read on in Hebrews you find that this is tied in with the dismissing/fulfillment of the sacrificial law by which Christ has purchased all who love Him ("If you love me keep......?"), thus the blood of bulls and goats is mentioned, and it thus makes clear that the thing that has passed away in Christ is the sacrificial system, of which the 'weekly' sabbath has no part. WHY? Because along with marriage, it was instituted at a point in creation history BEFORE sin entered the equation, or, would you contest that now that Christ has come, the institution of marriage no longer has relevence? You see that there is always room to argue, but there is always a scriptural example that not only defeats the argument, but also exemplifies the permanence of 'relationship law', which is what the entire ten commands are about.
"Oh but there is so much more to it:" you say as you refer to loving your neighbour as yourself, to which I would say "Amen", see Isaiah 58 and you will find this is a prophecy of how Jesus would exemplify this. Notice, the sabbath focus as well, WHY? HOW DOES IT FIT?
Jesus made special purpose of doing contraversial 'good' things on the sabbath in order to bring this 'right' focus onto sabbath keeping. There is no dismissal here, but rather, ownership; "Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord also of the sabbath day." and this IS "the Lord's day" spoken of by John the revelator.
The preceding verse says:4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
This is saying that God's works were finished on the seventh day and He rested. It does not say anything about a recurring rest. (as the seventh day rest commanded of Israel).3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Honestly, think about this passage! We know what the old covenant with Moses consisted of. Who has a veil here?14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
Hmmm! I forgot to mention that at the end of creation week, there was no such thing as a Jew or an Israelite, yet, this is when the sabbath was hallowed, set aside for rest. So tying jews or Israelites into sabbath keeping is no more nor less relevent than tying "honour thy mother and thy father" into a genetic heritage.
God bless! Ricker12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' " 18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
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God did enter into covenant with others besides nations, however.
Where does the Bible speak of this spiritual nation of Israel?
I guess I don't understand the relationship of this text to spiritual Israel.
Where do you see that Israel and the Gentiles are as one here? The new covenant was made with all believers in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. It was not made with a nation.
That's because the writer of Hebrews was quoting Jeremiah.
The first covenant, which you say is the ten commandments and I tend to think is the whole Mosaic law, is obsolete.
also we find in Gal 3:27-29
This is speaking of how we are all justified in the same way through Jesus. Are you saying males and females are exactly the same? As a married guy I can tell you there are some differences!
The covenant with Abraham was not the covenant with Israel at Siani. Abraham was not a Jew. Do I need to tell the story of his children?
Abraham's seed, through which all the world was/ is blessed is Jesus! (not Jacob)
God did enter into covenant with others besides nations, however
Thanks for your answer. I only have a coulple minutes right now.Please provide me with the scriptural support for this.
Most theologians consider Genesis 3:16-19 a covenant with Adam:
God made a covenant with Noah.16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
God made a covenant with Abraham.8 Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him: 9 "I now establish my covenant with you and with your descendants after you 10 and with every living creature that was with youthe birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with youevery living creature on earth. 11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."
None of these individuals were nations.18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates-
There was also a covenant with David.
God bless! Ricker
Agreed!It doesn't actually say spiritual Israel that is term we apply to the church today. God gave many prohecies in the Old Testament that go all the way to the new Jerusalem yet we know the literal nation of Israel was cut off from being a favored nation a few years after Christ ascended. Dan9 clearly placed limits on the time Israel was given to get her act straight.
Agreed!The prophecy in Dan 9:24 places limits on Israel. This tells us when we read in Acts where Paul and barnabas turned to the gentiles that the literal nation of Israel was no longer the favored nation they were before. Also when Christ sat above Jerusalem and wept over it, His declaration "behold your house is left unto you desolate" basically said Israel had lost her favored nation status as well.
We are all saved through Jesus and have become a priesthood of believers. Is this what you meant?You just answered your own question brother. God see's all mankind the same. When we become Christians we become His chosen people His royal priesthood. There was never a priesthood that God recognized anywhere else but the nation of Israel.
Did you read the post I wrote on spiritual Israel at all? First of all Israel was not called that at all obviously untill after Jacob.When God speaks of His people in the Bible He always calls them Israel from the book of Genesis to Revelation. Like Elijahhao said the twelve gates and foundations of the New Jerusalem is named after the twelve tribes of Israel ( minus Dan ). The 144,000 are divided 12 times 12,000 by the 12 tribes of Israel. The fact that the Holy City where God lives now is named the "New Jerusalem" is indicative of the existence of spiritual Israel.
Second, the new testament draws a clear distinction between the Christian church and Israel. Go back and read the texts, and I will give you more if you want.
Didn't Hebrews say this covenant was obsolete?He sure was. Think about this for a moment. If the new covenant was not to include the ten commandment law of God don't you think it would have said that in the book of Jeremiah? The only law of God Jeremiah was aware of very much included the ten commandments. Why would the author of Hebrews quoting Jeremiah here and very much applying this new covenant to Christians today not specify that the law of God that was to be written on our hearts was different than the ten commandments? It doesn't make any sense. When the Bible speaks of the law of God or the commandments of God it is speaking primarily of the ten commandments.
How can the commandments to not murder, steal, comit adultery, covet, worship idols. swear, or break the Sabbath ever become obsolete? The only part of the law that was fulfilled at the cross was the ceremonial laws. Christ's death never fulfilled our necessity to not murder, comit adultery, worshp idols, swear, covet or break the sanctity of the Sabbath.
The Mosaic covenant contains much we can look back and learn from. I like the comparison of someone moving from one country to another. Some of the laws may be the same, but this person is no longer under the jurisdiction of the old country.
Amen, but this doesn't mean we are somehow now Israel. We have seen that Israel can be saved or unsaved. Gentiles can be saved or unsaved.God called all mankind by the name of Adam/man. We are different individually but we are all the same value wise in God's eyes. If you read the context of these verses what you find is the Bible is telling us that there is no more favoritism towards Jews anymore now. We are all in Christ and if we be in Christ we are Abrahams's seed and err to his promises.
I have no arguement with this. We are joined to the Abrahamic covenant, which is faith, and not the Mosaic, which was added till Christ.Absolutely, but Abraham is considered the father of Israel. When Christ was speaking to the Jews they made it very clear they were Abraham's seed. The favored nation status started with Abraham and followed thru Isaac and then Jacob who became Israel. The covenant God made with Abraham was different than what He made with Israel at Sinai but you have to remember that the commandments/laws were added because of sin. Abraham was a fairly righteous man and kept God's commandments, statutes and laws according to Gen 26;5.
There is also a text in the new testament where Paul says not everyone who considers himself a Jew outwardly is a Jew in God's eyes but he who accepts Christ is a Jew inwardly in God's eyes. That is not a direct quote but that is the jest of it. That is the what we call spiritual Israel. Look up Roman 2:28-29.
This is speaking to Jews. It is not adressing Gentiles. Paul does this in 1:18-2:16. This is saying that one is really a saved Jew not by the law, but by being born again. Notice this goes well with 2 Cor.28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
God bless! Ricker6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantnot of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Thanks for your answer. I only have a coulple minutes right now.
Most theologians consider Genesis 3:16-19 a covenant with Adam:
God made a covenant with Noah.
God made a covenant with Abraham.
None of these individuals were nations.
There was also a covenant with David.
God bless! Ricker
The term is used universally by countless theologians.Was there even such an animal?
1 In the third month after the Israelites left Egypton the very daythey came to the Desert of Sinai. 2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.
3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.
3 When Moses went and told the people all the LORD's words and laws, they responded with one voice, "Everything the LORD has said we will do." 4 Moses then wrote down everything the LORD had said.
He got up early the next morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and set up twelve stone pillars representing the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 Then he sent young Israelite men, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as fellowship offerings to the LORD. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in bowls, and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, "We will do everything the LORD has said; we will obey."
16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
And perhaps the best one:4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands...............10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world
God bless! Ricker45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the LORD.' "
46 These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.
If the Bible only said Israel was the church that persevered to the end, maybe I would believe you. Did you not se the many texts in the Bible that clearly say Israel is fallen, so to speak? You say many philosophical things without any Biblical evidence. Show me where it says spiritual israel is the bride of Christ and I will shut up. It is a made up theory. BTW there were 12 disciples also.Ok, yeah He did enter into covenants with individuals like Adam, Abraham and Noah but He has never entered into a covenant with any other nation but Israel. The new covenant is with Israel so since the literal nation of Israel is rejected then this new covenant is with spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel is the church that will go thru to the end. Spiritual Israel is the bride of Christ, the chast and pure women of Revelation 12 clothed with the sun and moon at her feet and a crown of twelve starson her head.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
The term is used universally by countless theologians.
And perhaps the best one:
God bless! Ricker
Did you read the post I wrote on spiritual Israel at all? First of all Israel was not called that at all obviously untill after Jacob.
Second, the new testament draws a clear distinction between the Christian church and Israel. Go back and read the texts, and I will give you more if you want.
Didn't Hebrews say this covenant was obsolete?
The Mosaic covenant contains much we can look back and learn from. I like the comparison of someone moving from one country to another. Some of the laws may be the same, but this person is no longer under the jurisdiction of the old country.
Amen, but this doesn't mean we are somehow now Israel. We have seen that Israel can be saved or unsaved. Gentiles can be saved or unsaved.
This is speaking to Jews. It is not adressing Gentiles. Paul does this in 1:18-2:16. This is saying that one is really a saved Jew not by the law, but by being born again. Notice this goes well with 2 Cor.
God bless! Ricker
Who's covenant was it? God's or Moses's?
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession.
3 When Moses went and told the people all the LORD's words and laws, they responded with one voice, "Everything the LORD has said we will do."
4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands
46 These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses.
Again, who's covenant was it? God's or Moses's?
Obviously God's covenant with the Israelites through Moses. Why?
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