freeindeed2
In Christ We Are FREE!
You clearly missed the point. Can you break the Sabbath on Sunday?
In CHRIST alone...
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You clearly missed the point. Can you break the Sabbath on Sunday?That undercuts your previous: "but the Sabbath is only 'moral' 24 hours a week..."
Just Scripture...ever heard of a 'conscience'?How do you know this?
Interesting...I guess I could give you some more international experiences if you would like. The Gospel of Jesus Christ changes people in Vietnam just like it changes people in the U.S.What about Jimlarmore's experience in Vietnam regarding adultery and stealing? As it stands, he seems to have the superior experience in this area.
Just Scripture...ever heard of a 'conscience'?
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom. 2
Interesting...I guess I could give you some more international experiences if you would like. The Gospel of Jesus Christ changes people in Vietnam just like it changes people in the U.S.
Here's a little jam with that peanut butter. Even though you tried to obfuscate the truth of these texts before the message is very clear. Christ the Son of David the Son of God came thru Israel as the messiah to be the light to the Gentiles. Isa 60:5 also speaks of this but it's Israel that is to bring forth Christ and Israel was to be the light to the Gentiles.
Isa 60:2-5
2
For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4
Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5
Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Isa 49:5-6
5
And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Acts 13:47
Israel was to be a light to the gentiles as well as we shall see in Acts 13:45-47 which is a repeat of Isa 49:5-6.
45
But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Isa 49:6
48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Enough peanut butter for you?
I'm not afraid of hebrew history. I just don't take much stock in what they claimed or said. The hebrews were not all that great at getting things straight from day one. They virtually rejected/killed every prophet that God sent to them including the Messiah Himself. They believed in things that their own Bible's didn't support like life after death.
The new Testament was written nearly 100 years after Christ was born and yes it's vitally important to my faith but you know what I don't take just the new testament. I take the entire Bible to tell me the truth and never dismiss a part of the Old testament by saying that it was part of the old covenant. The only things that changed between the old and the new covenants was the ceremonial and some of the civil laws of the Jews.
I generally do post scripture when I have to or am challenged. I don't say something is in the Bible unless it's there.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
Thank you CRIB.Happy birthday to you
RICKER, FREE and X,
May God's blessings stay upon your lives to prosper you for good. May you continue in His grace, forever.
IN LoVE
CRIB
One could also argue that obeying God is a moral imperative. But that leads right back into the issue of whether God told us to obey the sabbath or not.
Happy Birthday to you as well, Xenon!Edit: Just noticed that we have the same birthday. Happy birthday to you!
Should we keep the fourth commandment out of duty or moral obligation?
I would have to say moral obligation.
Why do I say it's a moral obligation when most of theologians say it's not a moral issue?
All morals come from God.
When something is moral it effects the conscience.
Any command of God is a moral issue because He speaks to the conscience of man.
When God told Adam not eat of the tree it was a moral command because when Adam ate of the tree it effected his conscience.
All of the Ten Commandments are a conscience issue but fallen man has snuffed out the voice of God.
Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
It's not until God writes His law on the heart by the indwelling of His Spirit that they become a bothersome conscience issue.
So to me, anything that effects the conscience is a moral issue, which is seen in the commands of God.
What are your thoughts?
The 'morality' of it depends on the understanding/belief of each individual.
WHY?
Because the ten commands are the laws that define the limits of our relationships to God and humans.
For example, someone who has been taught that the fourth command is fulfilled in sunday keeping (not understanding the issue of the particular day), is in terms of their 'relationship attitude', innocent even though they are quilty at a legalistic level, provided their attitude is 'right' towards God. After all, the words we say and the things we do are all evaluated on attitude/relational principle. Thus, Abraham being prepared to kill his son as an act is wrong, but at the relational level, his attitude made it 'right'.
An important issue to realise is that the first four commandments relate to not keeping the sabbath holy in the same way that the last six commandments relate to not honouring your parents. Both these commands are about an attitude of respecting where we have come from and who we should honour. Once this principle becomes understood, the offence becomes real in it's relational aspect, thus it becomes 'moral'.
Forgive me if I'm not understanding, but I don't know if I agree with this line of thought. Can you find universal morality of the first 3 commandments outside of Judo-christianity? If we consider them moral, the fourth could be also, at least to the Israelites to whom they were given.Can you illustrate or even state the MORALLITY of the Sabbath?
God never commands murder. What makes murder murder, is the spirit in which it is done. It is also the same with sabbath keeping/breaking. The Spirit in which it is done decides the morality. What God judges as 'right' is moral, what God judges as wrong is immoral.If you decide to get subjective about that, then your argument/debate is with God, and I am betting that in the end God will be found right and all those who argue/debate with Him will be found wrong.
When Samuel chopped up the ratbag king who Saul was supposed to have slain, it was not murder, it was righteous culling.
If I keep sabbath simply because it is a regulation and so I do it in order to please God for the sake of finding favor with Him, then I have reduced it to a ceremony and I may as well bow before statues as well as statutes. If however my motive is to honour Him because I want to please Him for His sake (eg love Him) which realy comes through understanding His character as revealed in Jesus, and I happen to (ignorantly) get the day wrong, I still please Him because of my 'motive'.
I hasten to add, that for those who understand the sabbath issue, there is a correct/right day, it is The seventh day of the week and no amount of philosophy or debate can make it right if we trample it underfoot in favor of a more convenient day.
The 'morality' always lies in the motive/Spirit/attitude.
As for sabbath keeping being an Israelitish command? Aren't we all of Israel who prevail with God? Doesn't the new jerusalem have those twelve names on the gates?We are talking about spiritual realities here, not genetic realities. Those who are saved are all of the 'Israel of God'. There is no respecting of persons or discerning of race in the kingdom of heaven, but WHY in one kingdom would God have one group of people doing one thing and another group doing another? It does not add up. Read the end of Isaiah 66 and you can see that God says "all flesh". How can that be misstranslated? Then again, how is it that so many misstranslate the word "REMEMBER"? See Malachi 4:4 there is a direct pointer to sabbathkeeping here, not only the numbers, but the opening word, and then research the verse in it's entirety. Now, research the chronology of this instruction. Are we trampling the wicked under foot yet? Clearly this speaks of a time yet future (though soon)
It is 'moral' to those who understand, it is just another day to those who don't. Read Hebrews 4, focus on verse 4. The word used in these scriptures is DAY, and PLACE(in time) It is an appointment, but those who make the appointment will have faith and those who do not enter in will not enter in because of unbelief. Let God be true and men liars, because it is God's Own word which declares that those who do not enter in do not enter because of unbelief. Now belief is tied in with 'faith', and 'faith' with 'trust' and 'trust' with 'relationship' and 'relationship' with 'morality' because the focus becomes on attitude/motive/Spirit.
To some of you this will make sense, to others it will be obscure.
God never commands murder. What makes murder murder, is the spirit in which it is done. It is also the same with sabbath keeping/breaking. The Spirit in which it is done decides the morality. What God judges as 'right' is moral, what God judges as wrong is immoral.If you decide to get subjective about that, then your argument/debate is with God, and I am betting that in the end God will be found right and all those who argue/debate with Him will be found wrong.
When Samuel chopped up the ratbag king who Saul was supposed to have slain, it was not murder, it was righteous culling.
If I keep sabbath simply because it is a regulation and so I do it in order to please God for the sake of finding favor with Him, then I have reduced it to a ceremony and I may as well bow before statues as well as statutes. If however my motive is to honour Him because I want to please Him for His sake (eg love Him) which realy comes through understanding His character as revealed in Jesus, and I happen to (ignorantly) get the day wrong, I still please Him because of my 'motive'.
I hasten to add, that for those who understand the sabbath issue, there is a correct/right day, it is The seventh day of the week and no amount of philosophy or debate can make it right if we trample it underfoot in favor of a more convenient day.
The 'morality' always lies in the motive/Spirit/attitude.
As for sabbath keeping being an Israelitish command? Aren't we all of Israel who prevail with God? Doesn't the new jerusalem have those twelve names on the gates?We are talking about spiritual realities here, not genetic realities. Those who are saved are all of the 'Israel of God'. There is no respecting of persons or discerning of race in the kingdom of heaven, but WHY in one kingdom would God have one group of people doing one thing and another group doing another? It does not add up. Read the end of Isaiah 66 and you can see that God says "all flesh". How can that be misstranslated? Then again, how is it that so many misstranslate the word "REMEMBER"? See Malachi 4:4 there is a direct pointer to sabbathkeeping here, not only the numbers, but the opening word, and then research the verse in it's entirety. Now, research the chronology of this instruction. Are we trampling the wicked under foot yet? Clearly this speaks of a time yet future (though soon)
It is 'moral' to those who understand, it is just another day to those who don't. Read Hebrews 4, focus on verse 4. The word used in these scriptures is DAY, and PLACE(in time) It is an appointment, but those who make the appointment will have faith and those who do not enter in will not enter in because of unbelief. Let God be true and men liars, because it is God's Own word which declares that those who do not enter in do not enter because of unbelief. Now belief is tied in with 'faith', and 'faith' with 'trust' and 'trust' with 'relationship' and 'relationship' with 'morality' because the focus becomes on attitude/motive/Spirit.
To some of you this will make sense, to others it will be obscure.
This completely disregards the covenant issue. To put it simply, the Mosaic covenant includes the ten commandment laws and others and was given only to Israel. The sign of this covenant was the Sabbath. We as Christians are not under the old covenant. I wish you or someone else would explain this "spiritual Israel" concept from the Bible without statements that mean nothing theologically such as "12 gates in the new Jeruselem".
God bless! Ricker
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