Jon Osterman
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- Jan 23, 2018
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Do you think a "fetus" and a baby only look alike out of sheer coincidence? https://geneticliteracyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/66d5a40a439bbc3f6ff0a27852d72bb3.jpg
I'm done debating this issue with you until you can learn some respect and compassion for women. I am willing to guess the overwhelming majority of women get abortions because they see no other choices. "Convenience" trivializes them.
??? Do you speak for all women? By what authority? You find advocating that women should feel it's OK to have their own children be slaughtered is 'compassion' and 'respect?'
Isn't it more compassionate and respectful for women struggling in hard times to give them those women real aid and choices, as many pro-life organizations do, to help with finances, resources, and skills in child rearing?
Not, "Oh well it's too much trouble for me to actually help you. Your best bet is to just have your kid ripped limb from limb - that will really make your life better." <- That's the opposite of compassion and respect.
Did you know that in approx 64% of abortion cases, the woman was pressured or coerced to get an abortion? Are those spouses, doctors, boyfriends, parents, employers, and others 'respecting' her by pressuring her to have her kid murdered? And 79% are not made aware of alternatives and other resources and choices. Is that being compassionate and helping give them more options?
http://www.theunchoice.com/pdf/FactSheets/ForcedAbortions.pdf
And based on a Guttmacher report as to self-reported reasons U.S. women abort, here are some findings:
Keeping sex a secret hardly sounds like the woman had 'no options.' Parental pressure and partner pressure certainly don't sound like 'no options' - and wouldn't punishing someone who forced or pressured a woman into murder make far more sense than advocating murder as a solution?
- Only 4% of respondents cited health concerns as the main reason for abortion.
- Only 3% of respondents cited possible fetal abnormalities as their main reason for abortion.
- Less than 0.5% of respondents cited rape as their main reason for abortion.
- Only 1% of respondents cited rape as a reason for their abortion.
- 6% of respondents cited parental pressure as a reason for their abortion.
- 14% of respondents cited partner pressure as a reason for their abortion.
- 25% of respondents cited the desire to keep their sexual activity a secret as a reason for their abortion.
[Another interesting finding from the Guttmacher study: 1/3 of interviewed women said they considered adoption (they had a choice) but rejected it as "morally unconscionable option because giving one’s child away is wrong." So it wasn't their lack of choice, but a twisted social morality that promotes murder as OK but giving over your child to another family as wrong, that they were up against.]
Or look at some findings among Florida women who aborted their children in 2015 (in a study with much more credible than Guttmacher's):
.001% The pregnancy resulted from an incestuous relationship
.065% The woman’s life was endangered by the pregnancy
.085% The woman was raped
.288% The woman’s physical health was threatened by the pregnancy
.294% The woman’s psychological health was threatened by the pregnancy
.666% There was a serious fetal abnormality
6.268% The woman aborted for social or economic reasons
92.330% No reason (elective)
I think your speculation that the 'majority of women' have 'no choice' might actually be backwards.
I'm going to have to make a small but more compassionate 'addition'. "lie and deceive" 'or are themselves deceived'.This sort of post is really out of line. No-one is encouraging the killing of "babies". An early stage foetus cannot be considered a "baby" and no-one would call it this unless they were trying to lie and deceive.
Actually the pastor was being a pastor.Wow, sounds almost Lutheran in its logic. That's close to our attitude on the subject as well. Nobody has the right to make you a martyr for moral purity. Some things are deeply personal and they are between you and God.
Does pastor Fisk have the NT in his canon? Really I have to ask as you were presented several passages from the NT only to reply "Law" each time.But we do not emphasize the obligation to live a holy life the way Reformed or Wesleyans do. Pastor Fisk makes that clear in that video I reference earlier.
It's good to admit ones limits concerning their 'expertise'. I do question your post though. You wouldn't be interested in keeping your DNA carcinoma alive would you? I didn't think so. You don't even need to respond. Actually please don't. No offense intended, just want you to think more critically about what comes out of your....keyboard.It looks like the embryo of a dog, actually, but then that's not my area of expertise. It hardly matters what my opinion of what an organism should look like is but rather it matters what the DNA of the organism is.
I think a human embryo would look closer to this, but again my personal opinion doesn't affect the species of an organism one way or another.
View attachment 234776
There's plenty of empty rhetoric, framing, and posturing like that though on the anti-abortion side of the debate.
Jeez, I'm not so much pro-choice just pro-reality. I actually consider myself a non-ideologue. I think Cassey's verdict that fetal viability is a critical point is a good start to ending the debate among rational people about abortion. If a fetus can survive outside the womb then we start to have reasons to scrutinize the personal choice about abortion.
One of the saddest accounts over the past 6 years was visiting and taking care of my parents in their last few years on this pilgrimage on earth. The elderly couples or widows/widowers who did not have children and hoped to rely on nephews or nieces to advocate for them. It really breaks the heart to see and of course when I was there I did what I could legally to help them out. But at that stage their main problems are their health and finances. I don't know how many times I had to fight with doctors, hospitals, physical therapists and physical rehab homes for both my mom and dad as they became ill and infirm in their mid 80s. Oh the church helped a lot down there in Florida, but they cannot fight with doctors legally on your behalf and manage the finances to make sure they are not getting ripped off. That's quite frankly, at that age, the responsibility of sons and daughters.One good reason not to abort a baby. The baby could grow up and have offspring of their own.
Can't (and shouldn't) go by looks, not as seen by the eye....What about this one? Does this look like a human being to you?..
It's good to admit ones limits concerning their 'expertise'. I do question your post though. You wouldn't be interested in keeping your DNA carcinoma alive would you? I didn't think so. You don't even need to respond. Actually please don't. No offense intended, just want you to think more critically about what comes out of your....keyboard.
Does the ELCA call them the 10 Guidelines?The ten commandments are a decent start for the bronze age as guidelines for living a moral life. They are not ethical absolutes.
Would you say that God is Just? Because we do know that "Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne." (Psalm 97:2)but that doesn't necessarily imply that God is a legalist
Can't (and shouldn't) go by looks, not as seen by the eye....
Isaiah 52:14 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness--
New Living Translation
But many were amazed when they saw him. His face was so disfigured he seemed hardly human, and from his appearance, one would scarcely know he was a man.
English Standard Version
As many were astonished at you— his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—
Berean Study Bible
Just as many were appalled at You—His appearance was disfigured beyond that of any man, and His form was marred beyond human likeness—
I'm done debating this issue with you until you can learn some respect and compassion for women. I am willing to guess the overwhelming majority of women get abortions because they see no other choices. "Convenience" trivializes them.
http://theabortionsurvivors.com/If a fetus can survive outside the womb then we start to have reasons to scrutinize the personal choice about abortion.
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