• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is the feminist theory of patriarchy falsifiable?

poolerboy0077

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2013
1,172
51
✟1,625.00
Faith
Atheist
First, a crash course in falsifiability. (You can skip to the next paragraph if you already know what falsifiability is.) Falsifiability is a concept used in the sciences to be able to draw a line between useful, empirical theories and those that only seek to perpetuate themselves. Theories, that is to say explanations of sets of facts, must be sensitive to new information. In other words, it must be such that it is open to be disconfirmed, to have the potential to be proven false. Thus, a theory that can never be disconfirmed in principle is a bad, useless theory because it is not capable of ever being proven wrong. A theory like evolution, for example, is falsifiable; although it's based on facts of mutation, speciation, changes in allele frequencies, genetic drift, and so on, if we started to notice evidence that rabbits existed in the Precambrian era or DNA analysis disconfirming the assertion of common decent then that would severely undermine the theory (this is how you genuinely tackle such a theory and not the phantasmagorical and unlettered gobbledegook expressed in Gottservant's million 'gotcha' threads).


So what is feminist patriarchy? It's supposed to be a social system that promotes an imbalance among the sexes favoring men and oppressing women to varying degrees; they may be institutional or merely cultural such as traditions of elitism and its privileges that affect the way we interact interpersonally or even how we raise our young and affect their thinking.

When I ask whether patriarchy is falsifiable perhaps I'm not asking whether the above definition is falsifiable but rather its application by contemporary feminists. For example, take an issue often invoked by feminists: the gender pay gap. The gender pay gap is that, in America, women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes. Now, this alone is true; however, one cannot conclude that a mere disparity necessarily entails discrimination. Discrimination is one of many possibilities for that disparity. After all, that men are incarcerated disproportionately to women does not prove that it is simply out of animus or oppression toward men, rather than men actually committing more crime. Likewise, when it comes to the pay gap, there are several factors to account for. Economists have actually looked into this recently and have realized several things. One is that you cannot simply take median wages of men and women and simplistically draw inferences from such a gap. One must look to their human capital and compare like with like. Another issue to take note of is decisions made by the sexes. Women are more risk averse in the occupational choices they make. Men by contrast take up more dangerous and physically-demanding jobs which are riskier but pay more. Even when comparing similar occupations, like nursing, men are more likely to work overtime and graveyard shifts. Women are also more likely to go for maternity leave even when the husbands are themselves willing to be stay-at-home dads (e.g., Sheryl Sandberg is a good, albeit ironic, example). But when you present this to many feminists they say this is yet more proof of the patriarchy at play. How so? Because these decision and choice differences are accountable by sexist social stratification (i.e., the patriarchy). Often when debating religion, a religious apologist is tempted to invoke what is known in philosophic circles as the "god of the gaps," invoking supernatural agency as a placeholder for scientific ignorance, making God an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance. I feel patriarchy, as used by contemporary feminists, is a "sexism of the gaps." Unless we decide to finally tackle these human ecological questions empirically, we will be doomed to perpetuating this narrative through armchair, a priori conjecturing at the risk of genuine discovery.

Thoughts? Has anyone else noticed a similar trend? Conversely, does anyone have objections to the above?
 
Last edited:

poolerboy0077

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2013
1,172
51
✟1,625.00
Faith
Atheist
Considering we don't promote feminism here, I'd say it sucks.

Argggh.
Such theories need to be analyzed thoughtfully regardless of whether they [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] us off, or whether we "feel" they're wrong, or whether they challenge our cherished beliefs and sacralizations.
 
Upvote 0

isleof

Newbie
Jan 6, 2014
733
24
✟1,439.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Such theories need to be analyzed thoughtfully regardless of whether they [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] us off, or whether we "feel" they're wrong, or whether they challenge our cherished beliefs and sacralizations.

Feminisim would give you a butt whooping once a month for no reason. Best of luck?
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I don't know the research, or read much feminist theory on such things, so I can't really disagree with you about how the pay gap works. Personally I'd be interested in comparing men and women who work the same amount, rather than women in general. ie: Are individual women, who do the same work as men, nevertheless paid less?

There are also problems like women being less likely to be considered for promotion, or less likely to be given opportunities to demonstrate the skills which would increase one's reputation (at least in some job types).

Perhaps some feminists over use patriarchy as an explanation, but not all feminists are the same. Sexism is still a problem, and I don't get why feminism in general gets attacked so much. I'm not anti-male, and I'm against more overly controlling forms of feminism, but I don't see how any decent person can be against equality for females, which is what feminism is about. :)
 
Upvote 0

poolerboy0077

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2013
1,172
51
✟1,625.00
Faith
Atheist
I don't know the research, or read much feminist theory on such things, so I can't really disagree with you about how the pay gap works. Personally I'd be interested in comparing men and women who work the same amount, rather than women in general. ie: Are individual women, who do the same work as men, nevertheless paid less?

There are also problems like women being less likely to be considered for promotion, or less likely to be given opportunities to demonstrate the skills which would increase one's reputation (at least in some job types).

Perhaps some feminists over use patriarchy as an explanation, but not all feminists are the same. Sexism is still a problem, and I don't get why feminism in general gets attacked so much. I'm not anti-male, and I'm against more overly controlling forms of feminism, but I don't see how any decent person can be against equality for females, which is what feminism is about. :)
My point with referencing the pay gay is the hasty conclusions people draw just from a disparity. For example, just because we see more arrests and incarceration of men than women that doesn't necessarily mean it's due to sex discrimination, wouldn't you agree? I mean, it can be, but we don't know that unless we investigate further. Same thing with the pay gap: is it because of sex discrimination or because of the differences in the way men and women make choices? The same could be true about promotions. In fact the same economists who tackled the issue of the pay gap also uncovered the fact that men drive a harder bargain. No doubt many feminists will use the patriarchy to explain away why women aren't as aggressive (e.g., because they're conditioned not to be), but what's funny is one could make the same argument about patriarchy itself. The feminist theory of patriarchy could actually be a self-fulfilling prophesy in that it conditions women to internalize an attitude that they'll fail because of the attitudes of others and consequently be less likely to drive a hard bargain. Without further empirical investigation we won't know what's causing it.

Sexism is still a problem, and I don't get why feminism in general gets attacked so much. I'm not anti-male, and I'm against more overly controlling forms of feminism, but I don't see how any decent person can be against equality for females, which is what feminism is about.
I think you're confusing the pursuit of female equality on the one hand with an academic ideology and discipline on the other. Those two should not be conflated and an attack on the latter should not be construed to mean an attack on the former. For example, as someone who is openly gay I attack queer theory (which is like an analog to feminism for LGBT) for similar assertions that are baseless or seemingly erroneous. Does my attack on queer theory mean I'm against gay and lesbian equality? Of course not. The two are not the same and I wish more people would understand that.
 
Upvote 0

Paradoxum

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity!
Sep 16, 2011
10,712
654
✟35,688.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
My point with referencing the pay gay is the hasty conclusions people draw just from a disparity. For example, just because we see more arrests and incarceration of men than women that doesn't necessarily mean it's due to sex discrimination, wouldn't you agree? I mean, it can be, but we don't know that unless we investigate further. Same thing with the pay gap: is it because of sex discrimination or because of the differences in the way men and women make choices?

I agree.

The same could be true about promotions. In fact the same economists who tackled the issue of the pay gap also uncovered the fact that men drive a harder bargain. No doubt many feminists will use the patriarchy to explain away why women aren't as aggressive (e.g., because they're conditioned not to be), but what's funny is one could make the same argument about patriarchy itself. The feminist theory of patriarchy could actually be a self-fulfilling prophesy in that it conditions women to internalize an attitude that they'll fail because of the attitudes of others and consequently be less likely to drive a hard bargain. Without further empirical investigation we won't know what's causing it.

I'd say it is quite reasonable to think females are pushed to be a certain way (sweet little ladies). Males probably are in some ways too (big boys don't cry).

I think you're confusing the pursuit of female equality on the one hand with an academic ideology and discipline on the other. Those two should not be conflated and an attack on the latter should not be construed to mean an attack on the former. For example, as someone who is openly gay I attack queer theory (which is like an analog to feminism for LGBT) for similar assertions that are baseless or seemingly erroneous. Does my attack on queer theory mean I'm against gay and lesbian equality? Of course not. The two are not the same and I wish more people would understand that.

My problem is with attacking feminism, rather than specifying that it's a type of feminism that is the problem. Just my opinion.

I'd think the analysis of empirical data would come under a reasonable sort of feminism. :)
 
Upvote 0
Sep 4, 2011
8,023
325
✟10,286.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Even when comparing similar occupations, like nursing, men are more likely to work overtime and graveyard shifts. Women are also more likely to go for maternity leave even when the husbands are themselves willing to be stay-at-home dads (e.g., Sheryl Sandberg is a good, albeit ironic, example). But when you present this to many feminists they say this is yet more proof of the patriarchy at play. How so?
First, the statistics need to be presented before building up these claims as true.

In each of these examples, I can picture their husbands at home making assumptions that the women make the first sacrifice for the children. In many households, if both the man and woman are asked to work overtime, the man assumes that the woman will bend and watch the kids.

I only know two men who seriously offered to stay at home and raise the children -- not just considering it an escape from work, but taking on the full and very real responsibilities. These two are truly great at what they do, but they are rare gems.

I know more men than two, who do not have full-time jobs while their wives do, and they take their spare opportunities to watch sports or go play golf. They are not inventing new ways to teach their children money management, or repairing the back steps (these particular men in mind, not all men), or baking for the class party. The women still pick up the pieces when they get home, and end up needing to supervise the household to make sure things get done.

I am not saying that all men are lazy about home life, but that there is still a remnant in their minds that household and family responsibilities are less important than external work ones -- and that women magically understand how to do these things.

Ideally, in philosophy, men can say all sorts of things about how they want to treat women. But a load of work is still being left with women, and keeping up the house and family is not being valued as needing to be done.

I was in a very male-oriented work environment, where I often endured jabs similar to the "facts" posted in the OP. We were asked to attend many gatherings (semi-mandatory unpaid events), and for most of these the men's wives baked food to bring or prepared the house to host an event. I did not have a wife-servant at home to do these things -- I had to run home between work and the event to scrounge up something acceptable.

If I tried asking my husband to make something for me to bring -- even pick something up at the store-- he would have said, "Just don't go to the meeting-- they're not paying you."

In practice.

So yes, patriarchy is definitely in play when it comes to how women operate in the workplace. I will not even get into the demeaning things coworkers and employers have said to me, assuming that all women want to be home knitting.

I'm not asking whether the above definition is falsifiable but rather its application by contemporary feminists.

Because these mindsets still linger, I doubt men can even see enough of the problem to promote change. In appearances, women now have equality. But starting at the home, when people get up in the morning and rush the kids off to school.... who is taking charge of the "women's work?" Who is rushing home when the Alzheimer's-inflicted father wanders down the street? At home, who takes time off when the kids have a week-long school break?

The disparity starts there.

The statistics do not show all the realities.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0