Is temptation, in and of itself, sin?

Hmm said:

Only one type of clay is discussed there which is what I was saying...

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Agreed. . .mankind, from which the potter makes pottery for his own use, some noble and some ignoble.

Clare73 said:

Read it again. . .and please get it right.

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Okay, I just did. If things like this aren't saying that you don't believe in free will then I don't think I'm able to understand what you do mean. My loss I'm sure!

Clare73 said:

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

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Clare73 said:

I would submit that the absolute sovereignty of God is precisely what Scripture presents in
Daniel 4:35; Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Luke 22:22; Romans 9:29-30, Romans 9:14-29, Romans 11:25-34; Ephesians 1:4-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Peter 1:2.

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Which nobody in the Christian world would deny, Clair. The sovereignty of God I mean. Everyone believes that God’s sovereign, since (when we understand that word rightly) there’s no greater or lesser degrees of sovereignty, you either are sovereign or you’re not.

The word sovereign means...

If however you believe that sovereignty means meticulous determination of all things, that’s a misuse of the word.

So, does sovereignty mean that God rules, or is that word a commentary on how God rules?

If you believe the word is a that He rules issue, you’re correct. If you believe that the word sovereignty is a how He rules issue, then you’ve been watching too much John Piper.

Clare73 said:

Agreed. . .mankind, from which the potter makes pottery for his own use, some noble and some ignoble.

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God doesn't have ignoble uses for anything.

Hmm said:

Okay, I just did. If things like this aren't saying that you don't believe in free will then I don't think I'm able to understand what you do mean. My loss I'm sure!

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Explained in the rest of the post, at sovereignty of God and free will.

Cormack said:

Which nobody in the Christian world would deny, Clair. The sovereignty of God I mean. Everyone believes that God’s sovereign, since (when we understand that word rightly) there’s no greater or lesser degrees of sovereignty, you either are sovereign or you’re not.
The word sovereign means...

a supreme ruler, especially a monarch. "the Emperor became the first Japanese sovereign to visit Britain"
If however you believe that sovereignty means meticulous determination of all things, that’s a misuse of the word.​

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So, does sovereignty mean that God rules, or is that word a commentary on how God rules?

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God rules all things, there's no way to know all the ways how.

If you believe the word is a that He rules issue, you’re correct. If you believe that the word sovereignty is a how He rules issue, then you’ve been watching too much John Piper.

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Don't watch John Piper.

Clare73 said:

Don't watch John Piper.

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I agree

Hmm said:

God doesn't have ignoble uses for anything.

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Your issue is with Paul in Romans 9:18-21, not me. . .take it up with him.

Clare73 said:

Your issue is with Paul in Romans 9:18-21, not me.

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But I don't have an issue with Paul. I agree with what he says, I just don't agree with what you say he says.

Clare73 said:

. . .take it up with him.

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No need to. Next time I see him I'll pat him on the shoulder, tell him what a sterling job he did and probably offer him a drink.

Hmm said:

But I don't have an issue with Paul. I agree with what he says, I just don't agree with what you say he says.

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So good to hear you agree with Romans 9:10-23:

(Not all Abraham's descendants are his children, only those born of Isaac are reckoned his children.)
Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father. . .Isaac.
Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Malachi 1:2-3)

What then shall we say! Is God unjust? Not at all!
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Exodus 33:19)
It does not therefore depend on man's. . .effort, but on God's mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power (and wrath, v.22) in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

(see Exodus 4:21--before Moses ever left Midian to return to Egypt, God told him he would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen (Exodus 7:3) and let the people go.)

One of you will say. . .:"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will (to harden)?"
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' (Isaiah 29:16, 45:9)
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for ignoble use? (Pharaoh)

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience (to serve another purpose) the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?

No need to. Next time I see him I'll pat him on the shoulder, tell him
what a sterling job he did and probably offer him a drink.

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Agreed. . .he did do a sterling job presenting God's ignoble use for Pharaoh, didn't he?

Clare73 said:

Agreed. . .he did do a sterling job presenting God's ignoble use for Pharaoh, didn't he?

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You're taking me into dark, unknown waters here but I trust that you'll keep me safe and sane. What was God's ignoble use for Pharaoh?

Hmm said:

You're taking me into dark, unknown waters here but I trust that you'll keep me safe and sane. What was God's ignoble use for Pharaoh?

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Perhaps Judas can be tied in as well? Both were needed to fulfill God's plans, but alas... what a fate.

Saint Steven said:

Perhaps Judas can be tied in as well? Both were needed to fulfill God's plans, but alas... what a fate.

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Thanks for throwing light on this. I agree, I think the clear meaning is that God gives us free will but can always find a way to make something good out of the mess that He allows us to make. Which of course is very different from Him planning and forcing us to make the mess in the first place and then, as you say, inflicting a horrible punishment on us just because we were part of His plan that He made us to be.

Hmm said:

You're taking me into dark, unknown waters here but I trust that you'll keep me safe and sane. What was God's ignoble use for Pharaoh?

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It's there in the text, where Pharaoh is the locus of God's sovereignty in hardening whom he wants to harden for his own purposes.
God hardened his heart (v.18) for the purpose of displaying his wrath and making his power known (v.22) in the plagues on Pharaoh's subjects, including the death of Pharaoh's own son.

God's purpose for those in Jesus Christ is a noble one, so we don't need to be bothered by his purposes for those who are not.

It is ours to trust him in all things, because in all things he works for the good of those who love him.

Hmm said:

Thanks for throwing light on this. I agree, I think the clear meaning is that God gives us free will but can always find a way to make something good out of the mess that He allows us to make. Which of course is very different from Him planning and forcing us to make the mess in the first place and then, as you say, inflicting a horrible punishment on us just because we were part of His plan that He made us to be.

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It makes me wonder if there will be some special grace introduced to situations like this. These individuals did fit in the plan. Although the plans may have worked without them. Not sure. Jesus did say it would have been better for his betrayer if he had not been born. But I agree with you, God doesn't purposely MAKE anyone for ignoble purposes.

Saint Steven said:

It makes me wonder if there will be some special grace introduced to situations like this. These individuals did fit in the plan. Although the plans may have worked without them. Not sure. Jesus did say it would have been better for his betrayer if he had not been born. But I agree with you, God doesn't purposely MAKE anyone for ignoble purposes.

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He makes them to dishonor (atimia), a synonym for which is "ignoble."

Romans 9:21 is clear. God raised up Pharaoh to display his power (v.21) and to make his power and wrath known, the objects of his wrath having been prepared for destruction (v.22).

Clare73 said:

It's there in the text, where Pharaoh is the locus of God's sovereignty in hardening whom he wants to harden for his own purposes.

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Where does the "hardening whom he wants to harden" come from? It may have been a one off event aimed at achieving a specific purpose.

Clare73 said:

God's purpose for those in Jesus Christ is a noble one, so we don't need to be bothered by his purposes for those who are not.

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For those who are not what?

Clare73 said:

It is ours to trust him in all things, because in all things he works for the good of those who love him.

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Do you believe that we all have the capacity to love God and that He loves us all where all means all (not just the mythical Elect) and love means love (so saying that God loves the Reprobates because He also sends the sun to shine on them but at the same time He hates them and has predestined them to hell doesn't count)? The bits in brackets shouldn't be necessary but are because of the redefinition of common words we've encountered in this discussion.

I think this is more about Calvanism than the topic of the OP anyway so we should get back to the question of whether temptation is a sin or not.

So let me ask you, what is your biggest temptation and do you see it as a sin?

Clare73 said:

That decision was made before it came off the potter's wheel, "the right to make for ignoble purposes" (Romans 9:21).

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Firstly, I'm not ignoring some of your earlier posts. You've stated some interesting things. Some I'm pondering, while being a bit busy with some uninteresting necessities of life.

Next, I'm pretty certain from what I'm reading from you, that you and I are in substantial agreement. I have some questions, but mostly to make certain I understand some of the things you're saying. What mostly interests me is what comes from Scripture, and you're of the few here that use it and lay out your thoughts from it. So, please know this is very much appreciated.

Some brief Romans 9 points for your thoughts and anyone else who cares to review this re: what's being discussed:

9:1-6 Paul expresses great sorrow for his fellow Israelites, but knows that not all of them are Israel because God's word is involved in specifying in advance who would be Israel. He'll explain this, but we're dealing with God's sovereign will and decrees (and foreknowledge) here, as you've addressed in a few posts.

9:7-9 Not all of Abraham's descendants are God's children, because God alone has chosen who would be Israel. God alone has promised Israel would descend from Isaac through Abraham and Sarah.

9:10-13 Before they were born, God chose Isaac's son Jacob to be the descendant line from Isaac.

9:14 Some (even some we know) will question if God is unrighteous in choosing some over others. The answer to this is, Absolutely not! (BTW, this negation is fairly strong language).

9:15 Based upon what Moses said, God has concern/mercy and pity/compassion on whomever He chooses.

9:16-17 Paul thus concludes that it's not about human will, nor human effort, but about God who has mercy [on whomever He chooses to have mercy on]. As an example of this Paul uses God & Pharaoh. God raised Pharaoh up for God's purpose to demonstrate/display/make widely known in all the land God's power.

9:18 Paul thus concludes that God has mercy on whomever He Himself wills, and God hardens whomever He Himself wills.

9:19 Based upon all of this, some will question why God still blames/find fault [in people] if no one can resist/oppose God's intention/purpose (paraphrased - literally "for who has resisted/opposed His intention).

This goes on to talk about God's call, only a remnant of Israel being saved, gentiles, FAITH, etc.

God's sovereignty/authority, God's choice, God's will, God maintaining His righteousness in everything, God specifying in advance who would be His children and who would not be His children, God specifying before birth one son over another son, etc., etc., etc., is all discussed here. God does all this and no piece of clay person has any position to criticize Him or ultimately question His righteousness or why He does what He does.

If we cannot see in this God's absolute sovereign authority to righteously and justly (His R&J, not our thoughts about what's R&J) do what He wills with His creation, then we're making things up to suit our consciences, and desires, and whatever else to see Him as we want Him to be.

Sure, there's more to this, and this is some of the questioning I was asking. Where do we slice and dice (rightly divide the Word of Truth) these things to see how human will interacts with God's will.

It's a fact that God inserts Himself into human history when and where He chooses to guide it where He wills it to go. It's a fact that He places peoples into human history at times and locales He chooses for His purposes (Acts17) (as I asked before, could John the Baptist have chosen to be other than who God placed him here to be - the prophet to announce the King?). It's fact that He forms people for wrath and destruction and people for mercy and glory.

How this takes place with regard to His absolute sovereignty/rulership interacting with human will is fascinating and I'm seeing no in depth explanations in arguments from some here, just assertions, insertions, and even false argumentative allegations, and criticism for asking questions and seeking answers through exegesis and contemplative prayer and asking siblings' thoughts. From one I'm seeing Scripture and for this I'm grateful.

BTW, as I've stated several times, I understand God's unchangeable righteousness. I'm not one of those discussed in 9:14. I understand the strength of the phrase mē genoito! at the end of 9:14, because I study the original languages of Scripture, because I value the written Word of God, and thus there are certain things I do not question about God. I know He functions flawlessly within His perfect character. I also know some of us think we know more than we actually know about what He does and doesn't do.

Thanks, Clare, for moving this forward and standing on the sovereign authority of God's Word.

Hmm said:

God doesn't have ignoble uses for anything.

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God has noble purposes for ignoble things and He forms ignoble people for His noble purposes.

GDL said:

He forms ignoble people

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What does that mean? He sits down (or stands up, I'm open-minded about these things) and designs and lovingly builds them to be ignoble?