Is scripture the highest authority?

brinny · Aug 17, 2016

Is scripture the highest authority?

AnticipateHisComing, in thinking of the title of this thread there arose a quandry for me, because as i thought about it, i had to come to the conclusion that there is One Who is above scripture, and that is, the Giver of scripture Himself.

And Who is that?

It's God.

(i will elaborate if you wish.)

dqhall · Aug 17, 2016

pescador said:
And your basis for saying this is..? The various bibles are written for different purposes, and almost all of them fulfill those goals.

In case you're not aware there is no such thing as a literal bible. If there was it would be unreadable! Translators not only have to translate the ancient documents but they have put them in the words, grammar, meaning, idioms, etc. of the receptor language so that the readers can understand what was said.

IMHO one of the worst translations is the KJV. It is written in 400-year-old English and is based on the textus receptus, a collection of medieval manuscripts that, we now know, contain many inaccuracies. The KJV is written verse by verse, which bears no resemblance to the earliest texts or modern English and leads to out-of-context errors. Have you ever noticed that when people preach from the KJV they almost always translate it "on the fly" for the audience to understand? Why? Because the arcane language is so obtuse that most people don't really understand it. If you love 400-year-old English, fine, but the Bible is meant to be understood and glorify God, Christ, and the Spirit, not make people swoon over how it sounds.

One of the best is the NIV. It is the most widely read bible, whether inside or outside of church. It was put together by a team of renowned scholars and has been revised as more and better knowledge of the source languages and ancient culture has become available.

Be careful how you refer to God's word, regardless of the particular translation. Hopefully if you throw a translation in the trash, someone who needs it will fish it out.

I agree some modern translations are more accurate. When posting a block of scripture I know both the KJV and the WEB translations are not protected by copyright. If I copy parts of copyrighted translations online, I risk infringing someone's copyright. Some have lost fortunes in copyright infringement lawsuits.

Meowzltov · Aug 17, 2016

Addressing the OP

God is the highest authority, and God chooses to speak through His Church. YES HIS CHURCH. "The church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." Now the Church speaks through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (such as the Ecumenical Councils, etc.)

lesliedellow · Aug 17, 2016

Colter said:
Hi Leslie, I enjoy your post here on CF.

You said "That is just another name for calling whatever comes out of your own head, the utterances of the Spirit." That's the kind of argument Atheist make. And clearly men of religion have also denied the spirit in their hearts and coldly relied on the scripture in justification for committing all sorts of atrocities. Following your apparent lack of a prayerful relationship with God, had you been a Jew loyal to scripture authority, you would have also rejected Jesus......according to your, not very well thought out argument.

If the disciples sat light to the authority of scripture, and there is every reason to think they didn't, they would not have been following the example of Jesus who certainly regarded it as authoritative (John 5.46-47, for example)

FireDragon76 · Aug 17, 2016

John 5:39 comes to mind:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me"

Jesus is being critical here of "Bible only" religion. It is possible to focus so much on the Bible as informative that we lose sight of the living relationship with God. Information is ultimately about control in our lives after all. Our fallen nature seeks out information to control our circumstances, to be self-sufficient. We can effectively become our own god, only we delude ourselves into thinking we are obeying a higher voice.

It seems to me when we are looking for religious authority, and we want to approach anything like objectivity, we have to look at the consensus of what Christians have always believed. That doesn't make that consensus infallible (at one time the consensus was that slavery was acceptable, after all), but it seems to me wiser than treating the Bible as a "religion construction book".

pescador said:
One of the best is the NIV. It is the most widely read bible, whether inside or outside of church. It was put together by a team of renowned scholars and has been revised as more and better knowledge of the source languages and ancient culture has become available.

The NIV is theologically biased in favor of an Evangelical perspective on several points. I would recommend a translation like the Good News Bible, the CEV, or CEB for general reading over the NIV, simply because it has a wider field of scholarship. For deeper study, the Revised Standard Version is the best. The NRSV is also Ok but because of the use of clunky gender neutral language and paraphrase, it is not the best for study.

The KJV is difficult to read indeed. The Textus Receptus is still used in the Orthodox Church and conservative Protestant churches, however, and there's very little substantively different about the text in terms of doctrines. I would recommend the New King James Version as an example of this text. For many years as a teenager that was the Bible I used because the language was dignified without being incomprehensible.

Zaidagal · Aug 17, 2016

"Timothy" claims that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. We Roman Catholics believe our Church has authority therefore to interpret scripture. We also believe scripture is sacred and we stand in Church when the Gospels are read - our reverence for the "word" is total. Almost every part of the Catholic Mass comes straight from scripture. A lot of people don't know that almost the whole Mass can be found in scripture.

Colter · Aug 17, 2016

lesliedellow said:
If the disciples sat light to the authority of scripture, and there is every reason to think they didn't, they would not have been following the example of Jesus who certainly regarded it as authoritative (John 5.46-47, for example)

That's a fair counterpoint, assuming that Jesus' words were accurately recalled by John writing 60 years after Jesus left, but I don't see those words about faith in spiritual leadership validating the perfection of all scripture. Moses was himself a reformer of previous beliefs and practices of those under his command. There is NO surviving scripture which predated Moses.

Jesus didn't come to earth to reform the errors of his children's pre-school years, he came to broaden our understanding of the Father manifested in his life; making the way of salvation more clear. Jesus respected the faith of the children of Israel no matter how primitive or inaccurate those histories may have been as preserved in the scripture.

John 5.46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

food4thought · Aug 17, 2016

Vicomte13 said:
No. YOU are the highest authority in what you choose, or choose not to, believe.
People can preach at you, and words can be on the page for you, and God can reach down out of the air and grab your face and talk to you, but in the end it is YOU who decides what you believe, what you do not believe, and how the different pieces fit together. Nobody else gets to decide that for you: not God, not Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, not the Scriptures, not the Pope, not the ministers, not your Church, not the body of public opinion.

The ultimately authority on what you believe is YOU, and you will be held accountable for what that is.

You're not the ultimate authority on how your body behaves. The atoms and organs are under the control of laws that do not come from you, and that you cannot control. You're not the ultimate authority on what exists or not - existence is what it is, quite apart from you. Whether God exists and who or what God is is not under your authority.

But what you believe about it is completely under your sole authority and nobody else's. Moreover, what you say about that belief is also completely under your authority. The ultimate authority in what Scripture MEANS is you, and noone else.

Because that is true of each and every man, conflict occurs.

Seriously?!?

Definition of irony: person who claims to belong to the Catholic church-- the church that slaughtered thousands of people (or more) over the centuries because they refused to accept that only the Catholic church, not laypeople, could interpret Scripture-- claiming that individual laypeople are the highest authority of deciding what Scripture means.

Not trying to be mean, Vicomte13... just wondering if you really understand what the Catholic church teaches on the matter. Judging by your statements above, you are a hardcore protestant in what you believe.

Optimax · Aug 17, 2016

Who one accepts as the highest authority is dependent on the choice each person makes for themselves.

That does not mean that choice is the correct one.

That choice is made based on who each person decides to believe is the Highest.

Some actually believe that what they refer to as "The Church" is the highest authority.

The problem with that is it puts a man or men considered to be for whatever reason as the highest authority.

Some believe God to be the highest authority which makes what He says about life and the things pertaining to life as the highest authority that we can trust and live by what He, God said in His word.

Scripture tells us that the highest Name in every place there is is the Name of Jesus.

Phil 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. KJV

God also said this.

Ps 138:2
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. KJV

The Name of Jesus is the Highest Name there is above every dominion there is above every other name there is.

God says that His word is right there in the Highest Place with that Name.

According to God.

And since He is God not man or any man except the Lord Jesus.

He, being God knows.

That is more than enough evidence to know and believe that the Highest Authority is in God revealed to us in His Word.

The highest authority is not, never will be, never has been in a man or group of men except the Man, Jesus Christ.

FireDragon76 · Aug 17, 2016

food4thought said:
Seriously?!?

Definition of irony: person who claims to belong to the Catholic church-- the church that slaughtered thousands of people (or more) over the centuries because they refused to accept that only the Catholic church, not laypeople, could interpret Scripture-- claiming that individual laypeople are the highest authority of deciding what Scripture means..

I think you are missing the deeper meaning. In this modern age of religious pluralism, all of us have to be our own authority to some extent and take personal responsibility for our beliefs. That also doesn't contradict what Roman Catholicism actually teaches, particularly on the subject of individual conscience. The 1986 film, The Mission is a good example of the Catholic teaching on conscience, on this point in fact. Sometimes a formed conscience will lead one to disobey religious hierarchy, and this is not wrong to do so.

If you want to fling mud... I could point out the problematic nature of Luther's actions, when the peasants revolt happened, he was horrified by the slaughter that he helped instigate. But instead he blamed God instead of taking personal responsibility for his decision. His manner of thinking is actually deeply medieval in a dark sort of way on this point.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 17, 2016

food4thought said:
Definition of irony: person who claims to belong to the Catholic church-- the church that slaughtered thousands of people (or more) over the centuries because they refused to accept that only the Catholic church, not laypeople, could interpret Scripture-- claiming that individual laypeople are the highest authority of deciding what Scripture means.

Remember that God doesn't tell anyone(not church, not individual) they can "decide" what Scripture means.
All the errors of people following others instead of God start (in a manner of speaking) there.

Thursday · Aug 17, 2016

AnticipateHisComing said:
In the Sola Scriptura thread a claim was made that scripture is not the highest authority we have now. I was flabbergasted that Christians would make such a claim, as I believe scripture to be God's word. While there were multiple writers of scripture, the author of the words are none other than God who used the Holy Spirit to direct the writers. Of course scripture attests to this in multiple places.

My belief that scripture is the highest authority that we Christians now living have is based on the truth that God is supreme. In the absence of God's physical presence, we have God's word as next highest authority, John 1:17, John 17:17, John 8:31-32, Mat 24:35. God's words are in places direct quotes of Jesus in the first four books of the N.T. God's words are also Jesus working through the Holy Spirit to speak through the 13 apostles, who Jesus gave special authority, 2 cor 13:3.

The greatest special authority the apostles had was to write down scripture, speak God's word. This was completed 60 years after Jesus' departure. While the canon of scripture was not declared until later, God's words in the N.T. scriptures were circulating and being used before the later date that certain church leaders took it upon themselves to throw out the trash that had been added to the list of "scripture" over time. Understand that the authority to throw out trash is lower than the authority to speak God's word. For by the diligent reading of God's words, we could all attain the understanding needed to test false teachings and throw out the trash. Scripture in fact gives this task to all, to test what you are being taught against scripture.

Some falsely claim that others today continue with the same authority as the first apostles, and that the Holy Spirit speaks through them with equal truth. I ask what proof of their authority do we have? Were they called directly by Jesus? Do they perform the miracles like Jesus did. Are their words added to the canon?

I believe what scripture says, that the Holy Spirit continues to speak through many Christians today including religious leaders of all denominations. The question is how can one be certain of what anyone says at any given time is the truth? There is only one that can not lie, God. Given that we live in a fallen world and continue to sin, there is no proof that what anyone of any religious knowledge or authority always speaks the truth. To me the whole issue of the SS battle is just one of incontrovertible truth. As God and scripture testifies to its truth, I see no argument proving that there is incontrovertible truth anywhere else except in God's words.

We can always be certain that God's word in scripture is always true. How can this be said for anything else?

Scripture must be interepreted. By itself it has no authority.

That's why there are hundreds of protestant churches who believe that the bible is the word of God yet they teach contradictory doctrines using the same scriptures.

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 17, 2016

brinny said:
Is scripture the highest authority?

AnticipateHisComing, in thinking of the title of this thread there arose a quandry for me, because as i thought about it, i had to come to the conclusion that there is One Who is above scripture, and that is, the Giver of scripture Himself.

And Who is that?

It's God.

(i will elaborate if you wish.)

You need to read more than the title of the thread to argue the points of the thread. As said before, your answer is a cop out to the question asked in this thread.

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 17, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
John 5:39 comes to mind:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me"

Jesus is being critical here of "Bible only" religion. It is possible to focus so much on the Bible as informative that we lose sight of the living relationship with God. Information is ultimately about control in our lives after all. Our fallen nature seeks out information to control our circumstances, to be self-sufficient. We can effectively become our own god, only we delude ourselves into thinking we are obeying a higher voice.

Read more than one verse of scripture before you say what it means.

36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

Jesus condemns the religious leaders of his day for the words of scripture not dwelling/working in them. He then says this is why they do not believe him. This is in no way a teaching to discourage the study of scripture. Can you really be so shortsighted to think that God does not want us to study his words? There are many verses that explicitly say to learn what God has said. Yes, it is also important to follow what is said.

FireDragon76 said:
It seems to me when we are looking for religious authority, and we want to approach anything like objectivity, we have to look at the consensus of what Christians have always believed. That doesn't make that consensus infallible (at one time the consensus was that slavery was acceptable, after all), but it seems to me wiser than treating the Bible as a "religion construction book".

I smell defeat.

I agree consensus is not truth, but then again, lack of consensus is not truth.
This argument is a desperate argument though.

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 17, 2016

Thursday said:
Scripture must be interepreted.

True.

Thursday said:
By itself it has no authority.

False

Thursday said:
That's why there are hundreds of protestant churches who believe that the bible is the word of God yet they teach contradictory doctrines using the same scriptures.

Is your argument that God's words do not have authority because some people don't believe them or misinterpret them and so many different doctrines exist? That is a very weak argument. Don't change my question of authority and truefulness with effectiveness of the truth.

Certainly the Holy Spirit is crucial in the effectiveness of God's word as recorded in scripture. Learn that what God says is true and authoritative regardless of how well it is received. Certainly you can't profess that God's authority is somehow dependent on how well we understand it.

AnticipateHisComing · Aug 17, 2016

FireDragon76 said:
I think you are missing the deeper meaning. In this modern age of religious pluralism, all of us have to be our own authority to some extent and take personal responsibility for our beliefs.

Please note the difference between effectiveness of God's word and the truth/authority of it. Not at all the same question. The answer for one is not the answer for the other.

FireDragon76 said:
If you want to fling mud... I could point out the problematic nature of Luther's actions, when the peasants revolt happened, he was horrified by the slaughter that he helped instigate. But instead he blamed God instead of taking personal responsibility for his decision. His manner of thinking is actually deeply medieval in a dark sort of way on this point.

I agree, but if you fault Martin Luther for starting crimes against those that rejected his words, than you must also fault the RCC for the same. Vice versa also.

Thursday · Aug 17, 2016

AnticipateHisComing said:
True.

False

Is your argument that God's words do not have authority because some people don't believe them or misinterpret them and so many different doctrines exist? .

The words have authority only when correctly interpreted.

Who was given the authority to teach the truth of the gospel by Jesus?

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Matt 16
16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

lesliedellow · Aug 17, 2016

Thursday said:
Scripture must be interepreted.

By whom? Oh, don't tell me, a collection of crusty old cardinals in the Vatican, who are supposedly blessed with infallibility.

Thursday · Aug 17, 2016

lesliedellow said:
By whom? Oh, don't tell me, a collection of crusty old cardinals in the Vatican, who are supposedly blessed with infallibility.

Jesus started a Church, he didn't write a book.

His Church wrote down his teachings, perserved them, and proclaims them throughout the world.

lesliedellow · Aug 17, 2016

Thursday said:
The words have authority only when correctly interpreted.

Who was given the authority to teach the truth of the gospel by Jesus?

Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

To quote your own words back at you, scripture needs interpreting. For what ought to be obvious reasons, there was no word meaning "church" circa 30 AD, when Jesus would have been speaking. Εκκλησια means no more than a community, or assembly of believers.

Is scripture the highest authority?

Is scripture the highest authority we now have on earth?

1) Yes

2) No

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