Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

Souldier said:
Actually its just what a certain denomination of the Universal Apostalic church teaches.

Some hold the view you mention above. I do not.

Rick Otto · Apr 13, 2015

Souldier said:
Actually its just what a certain denomination of the Universal Apostalic church teaches.

That's what I was thinking.
I have a better interpretation for the same theology.

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Some hold the view you mention above. I do not.

I think the writers of the Creed were referring to the Church which the apostles established. That Church was formed long before the certain denomination that you are refering to formed.

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

Rick Otto said:
That's what I was thinking.
I have a better interpretation for the same theology.

Im sure you do brother

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

Souldier said:
I think the writers of the Creed were referring to the Church which the apostles established. That Church was formed long before the certain denomination that you are referring to formed.

Yes, the authors of the creed were Catholic bishops who knew nothing of denominations but who knew much of heresies and schisms because they wrote the creed to combat a heresy called Arianism which was named after a man who was in schism from them and who was trying to establish another church to compete against the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. These same Catholic bishops believed and taught infant baptism, the real presence, prayer for the dead, the intercession of the saints in heaven, episcopal authority, holy relics, honouring saints, holy days and all manner of things that the Catholic Church today also teaches and proclaims to the world.

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Yes, the authors of the creed were Catholic bishops who knew nothing of denominations but who knew much of heresies and schisms because they wrote the creed to combat a heresy called Arianism which was named after a man who was in schism from them and who was trying to establish another church to compete against the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. These same Catholic bishops believed and taught infant baptism, the real presence, prayer for the dead, the intercession of the saints in heaven, episcopal authority, holy relics, honouring saints, holy days and all manner of things that the Catholic Church today also teaches and proclaims to the world.

Good thing they didnt put that other stuff in the creed.

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

Souldier said:
Good thing they didnt put that other stuff in the creed.

They did put it in the canons of the first council of Nicea and in the subsequent Oecumenical councils.

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
They did put it in the canons of the first council of Nicea and in the subsequent Oecumenical councils.

Good thing the apostles never put it in there letters.

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

Souldier said:
Good thing the apostles never put it in there letters.

The apostles did, they put it in the gospels too.

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
The apostles did, they put it in the gospels too.

No they didnt. Thats just a falible interpretation of what the apostles wrote. You will never see the apostles praying to anyone but God alone.

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

Souldier said:
No they didnt. Thats just a falible interpretation of what the apostles wrote. You will never see the apostles praying to anyone but God alone.

You say Tomayto and I say Tomahto. It isn't worth debating is it?

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

Lets just forget all that MoreCoffe, i regret going there. It wont do any good to discuss it further.

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Y It isn't worth debating is it?

NOt in my opinion, no.

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
...

The impeccability of the Virgin Mary.

Assuming that the above means the immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary I offer the following for consideration as biblical sources for this most beautiful of doctrines of the Catholic Church.

In Lk 1:28 the archangel hails her as, "full of grace". Most versions today do not use that rendering, but greatly weaken it. Yet it is the correct translation as we can see from the Magisterium (Pius XII, Fulgens Corona, AAS 45, 579, and constant use of the Church) and also from philology.

For the Greek word in the Gospel is kecharitomene. It is a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo. A perfect passive participle is very strong. In addition, charitoo belongs to a group of verbs ending in omicron omega. They have in common that they mean to put a person or thing into the state indicated by the root. Thus leukos means white, so leukoo means to make white. Then charitoo should mean to put into charis. That word charis can mean either favor or grace. But if we translate by favor, we must keep firmly in mind that favor must not mean merely that God, as it were, sits there and smiles at someone, without giving anything. That would be Pelagian: salvation possible without grace. So for certain, God does give something, and that something is grace, are share in His own life. So charitoo means to put into grace. But then too, kecharitomene is used in place of the name "Mary". This is like our English usage in which we say, for example, someone is Mr. Tennis. That means he is the ultimate in tennis. So then kecharitomene should mean "Miss Grace", the ultimate in grace. Hence we could reason that fullness of grace implies an Immaculate Conception.

Overflowing grace: Pius IX, in the document, Ineffabilis Deus, defining the Immaculate Conception in 1854 wrote: "He [God] attended her with such great love, more than all other creatures, that in her alone He took singular pleasure. Wherefore He so wonderfully filled her, more than all angelic spirits and all the Saints, with an abundance of all heavenly gifts taken from the treasury of the divinity, that she, always free from absolutely every stain of sin, and completely beautiful and perfect, presented such a fullness of innocence and holiness that none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it."

What about the words of Jesus in Lk 11:27-28 (cf. Mt. 12:46-50 and Mk 3:35)? A woman in the crowd exclaimed: "Blessed is the womb that bore you...." He replied: "Rather blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it."

The dignity of being Mother of God is a quasi infinite dignity, as we just saw from the words of Pius XI. Yet here, our Lord is teaching us that the holiness coming from hearing the word of God and keeping it is something greater still. Her holiness must indeed be great--so great that "none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it."

Even though Mary was full of grace at the start of her life, yet she could still grow, for, as it were, her capacity for grace could increase.

In general, a soul will grow in proportion to these things: (1) The greater the dignity of the person, the greater the merit In her case, the dignity of Mother of God is the highest possible for a creature. (2) The greater the work, the greater the merit: her cooperation in the redemption was the greatest work possible to a creature. (3) The greater the love, the greater the merit. Love of God means the attachment of our will to His. Her will adhered supremely, with no obstacle at all, so that even ordinary household duties, which she saw as the will of the Father for her, were supremely valuable. (click this link for the source)

This video clip may interest you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwx8g8z7FUo

BobRyan · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Assuming that the above means the immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary I offer the following for consideration as biblical sources for this most beautiful of doctrines of the Catholic Church.
In Lk 1:28 the archangel hails her as, "full of grace". Most versions today do not use that rendering, but greatly weaken it. Yet it is the correct translation as we can see from the Magisterium (Pius XII, Fulgens Corona, AAS 45, 579, and constant use of the Church) and also from philology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwx8g8z7FUo

Same thing is said about Stephen - and nobody imagines an "immaculate conception" for Stephen because like Mary - nothing of the kind is mentioned for him and it is too big a thing to simply "make up" without actual Bible support for it.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
The perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary is in holy scripture. The angel Gabriel calls Blessed Mary "full-of-grace" and she is a virgin and she says "How will this be, since I am a virgin?" All these things are written in the Gospel according to saint Luke chapter one.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the mother of God is in holy scripture because Blessed Mary is the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Lord Jesus Christ is God hence Blessed Mary is the mother of God. This too is in the Gospel according to saint Luke chapter one an in many other places.

What were the other two?

Some irrefutable facts.

1. No NT author speaks of Mary as "the Mother of God" or the "Queen of Heaven"

2. When we DO find someone in the NT saying to JESUS "Blessed be Mary your Mother" -- Jesus' response is "ON THE CONTRARY..."

3. Both Stephen and Mary are said in the Bible to be "full of grace" -- nobody dreams up immaculate conception stories for Stephen - and Protestants have no more reason for such dreaming about Mary as about Stephen.

4. Mary confesses Christ as Lord and Savior. yep -- she needed one for "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" which includes Mary when she and Jesus' brothers come to drag him off - saying he has gone mad, during the time of his ministry.

in Christ,

Bbo

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

BobRyan said:
Same thing is said about Stephen - and nobody imagines an "immaculate conception" for Stephen because like Mary - nothing of the kind is mentioned for him and it is too big a thing to simply "make up" without actual Bible support for it.

in Christ,

Bob

I am confident that holy scripture does not speak of saint Stephen the deacon and martyr as "kecharitomene".

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

The bible teaches us not to glory in men.

MoreCoffee · Apr 13, 2015

Souldier said:
The bible teaches us not to glory in men.

Yes, that is what holy scripture teaches us yet it teaches us that our Lord Jesus Christ is a man and saint Paul says that we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. And although the Lord is an exception far above any other man or woman yet it is both right and holy to show honour to those whom God honours by calling them saints.

Souldier · Apr 13, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Yes, that is what holy scripture teaches us yet it teaches us that our Lord Jesus Christ is a man and saint Paul says that we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. And although the Lord is an exception far above any other man or woman yet it is both right and holy to show honour to those whom God honours by calling them saints.

We are all saints. Im St. Souldier. That doesnt mean anyone should glorify me because i am nothing. We are supposed strive for a united mindset. Thats hard to do when we put some obove others. Also, its for that reason (and others) that we dont pray to saints. The scriptures also say not to call any man father or teacher, and not to be called that either, because we are all brethren and only Christ is the teacher. This agrees with pauls exhortation not to glory in men

Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

Repentance works.

The Dude Abides

Regular Member

Regular Member

Repentance works.

Regular Member

Repentance works.

Regular Member

Repentance works.

Regular Member

Repentance works.

Regular Member

Regular Member

Repentance works.

Junior Member

Junior Member

Repentance works.

Regular Member

Repentance works.

Regular Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency