Is salvation a convenant?

[jamespeters]

I am interested to hear what your views are on salvation as a covenant with God?

If it is a covenant, can it be broken by God or us?

James.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I view covenants as the explicit Biblical covenants specified in Scripture with particular participants and stipulations. Scripture covenants are typically "cut" by a sacrifice, such as the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 15) or the New Covenant (Luke 22:20, Hebrews 9:15-18). So salvation itself is not a covenant.

Salvation is a drastic change in a person's status with God. Before salvation, a person's relationship to God is that of a guilty person before a judge. That person is under God's wrath and is literally considered an enemy of God. At the moment of salvation, when a person trusts Jesus Christ as their Savior, a person's relationship with God changes from that of being under judgment to one of being an adopted son. That person is no longer considered an enemy of God, but as an adopted son of God.

So salvation is in a real sense a move from the condemning courtroom to the loving family room. God may still be angry with his adopted sons over certain behavior or patterns of thinking, but He does not treat them the same way as He would with those in the courtroom. God chastises his adopted sons as a father disciplines his sons.


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[heymikey80]

Salvation is a grant, a gift wholly of God's grace. It's granted through a covenant, yes.

Broken covenants do not lose force when they're violated. They become *that much harder to fulfil*, but their stipulations remain in force, and what's worse, "Somebody gotta pay." Just like a broken contract, the penalties of the covenant fall on the parties of the covenant.

And so they did. Through God Incarnate, He arrived as a man to bear the penalty of covenants already broken, and thus God is fulfilling His covenantal promise to save His people.

This is plastered across the New Testament like a broadside poster.

For more information on how covenants work, try O.P. Robertson's, "Christ of the Covenants". If you can find his out-of-print "Covenants" it's a good primer on the thinking, too.

 

[jamespeters]

Thank-you both for your insight. That's very helpful!

James.

 

[Jerrysch]

I am interested to hear what your views are on salvation as a covenant with God?

If it is a covenant, can it be broken by God or us?

James.

James, go to http://www.biblegateway.com/

and type in "covenant" and see what comes out, you will then have what the Bible says a covenant is and just how many it speaks of.

 

[Jerrysch]

I view covenants as the explicit Biblical covenants specified in Scripture with particular participants and stipulations. Scripture covenants are typically "cut" by a sacrifice, such as the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 15) or the New Covenant (Luke 22:20, Hebrews 9:15-18). So salvation itself is not a covenant.

Salvation is a drastic change in a person's status with God. Before salvation, a person's relationship to God is that of a guilty person before a judge. That person is under God's wrath and is literally considered an enemy of God. At the moment of salvation, when a person trusts Jesus Christ as their Savior, a person's relationship with God changes from that of being under judgment to one of being an adopted son. That person is no longer considered an enemy of God, but as an adopted son of God.

So salvation is in a real sense a move from the condemning courtroom to the loving family room. God may still be angry with his adopted sons over certain behavior or patterns of thinking, but He does not treat them the same way as He would with those in the courtroom. God chastises his adopted sons as a father disciplines his sons.


Lamorak Des Galis

excellant post

 

[hlaltimus]

Salvation was a covenant with God before it ever became a covenant with man. Since a covenant required the agreement between at least two consenting parties, in order for the "Everlasting Covenant" to have been made within the realm of eternity, at least two parties had to be present then and consenting to both the objectives and terms of that covenant. This is why the Lord used the phrase, "The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, And He will show them His covenant." Psalms 25:14 That covenant was a secret to the Lord before it was ever disclosed to a believing man because it had been inaugurated in eternity. God could not show a man, (or woman,) His covenant if no covenant even existed prior, therefore such a covenant had to exist between the members of the Triune Godhead then and there. However, even though a covenant required at least two initiating parties, it did not exclude the addition of other consenting parties, or, those who fear the Lord in time. This explains how we can enter into covenant with the Lord and yet not be either the foundation or integrity of that covenant.

 

[Wizzer]

I am interested to hear what your views are on salvation as a covenant with God?

If it is a covenant, can it be broken by God or us?

James.

Hello,

I would have a slightly different take. Yes, the New Covenant is a covenant, but I would see it as unbreakable in a corporate sense. (Read Jeremiah 33:20 and the first half of 21.) I view the covenant as really being between the Father and the Son. Men benefit from that covenant relationship when they join the body of Christ. Men become participants through their association with Christ - they become members of His corporate body. It is His relationship with the Father which shall never be broken. We benefit from that unbreakable covenant only as we remain in Him. So the falling away of any individual man from Christ does not in any way impact the covenant between Father and Son.

Wizzer

"He who has the Son has life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have life." [John 5:12]

 

[Jerrysch]

Salvation was a covenant with God before it ever became a covenant with man. Since a covenant required the agreement between at least two consenting parties, in order for the "Everlasting Covenant" to have been made within the realm of eternity, at least two parties had to be present then and consenting to both the objectives and terms of that covenant. This is why the Lord used the phrase, "The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, And He will show them His covenant." Psalms 25:14 That covenant was a secret to the Lord before it was ever disclosed to a believing man because it had been inaugurated in eternity. God could not show a man, (or woman,) His covenant if no covenant even existed prior, therefore such a covenant had to exist between the members of the Triune Godhead then and there. However, even though a covenant required at least two initiating parties, it did not exclude the addition of other consenting parties, or, those who fear the Lord in time. This explains how we can enter into covenant with the Lord and yet not be either the foundation or integrity of that covenant.

Where do you find this covenant in Scripture?

 

[Jerrysch]

Hello,

I would have a slightly different take. Yes, the New Covenant is a covenant, but I would see it as unbreakable in a corporate sense. (Read Jeremiah 33:20 and the first half of 21.) I view the covenant as really being between the Father and the Son. Men benefit from that covenant relationship when they join the body of Christ. Men become participants through their association with Christ - they become members of His corporate body. It is His relationship with the Father which shall never be broken. We benefit from that unbreakable covenant only as we remain in Him. So the falling away of any individual man from Christ does not in any way impact the covenant between Father and Son.

Wizzer

"He who has the Son has life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have life." [John 5:12]

Yet the new covenant is not yet in force. One may but read regarding this covenant in Scripture to see that this is the case. Yet salvation was in effect prior to any covenant, and it was not constrained by any provision of a covenant.

 

[heymikey80]

Yet the new covenant is not yet in force. One may but read regarding this covenant in Scripture to see that this is the case. Yet salvation was in effect prior to any covenant, and it was not constrained by any provision of a covenant.

I would say the New Covenant is indeed in force. What the New Covenant promises has not been completed, true. It promises that under the New Covenant all will know the God of the Universe, that all will have a heart for Him. Yet isn't that the goal of the New Covenant, not a condition. We could never gain such things without the promises given under the New Covenant. The New Covenant operates to bring such things about.

Under the Abrahamic covenant there was a promise that the Gentiles would come to God through Him. Yet Abraham was inaugurated back in Genesis 15. It was active and in force and in place, and indeed seems to be so today as well.

 

[ddub85]

I am interested to hear what your views are on salvation as a covenant with God?

If it is a covenant, can it be broken by God or us?

James.

Salvation is a part of the Old Covenant. The promise was given to Abraham before the law, to all nations, Jew and Gentile;

Gal 3:8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

This covenant can never be broken, as it was ratified by God Himself (Gen 15:8-17).

God Bless!

 

[Jerrysch]

I would say the New Covenant is indeed in force. What the New Covenant promises has not been completed, true. It promises that under the New Covenant all will know the God of the Universe, that all will have a heart for Him. Yet isn't that the goal of the New Covenant, not a condition. We could never gain such things without the promises given under the New Covenant. The New Covenant operates to bring such things about.

.

Here is the New Covenant as the Bible states it;

Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them, "declares the LORD.
33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The first thing that needs to be seen is To whom is the covenant made; The house of Israel and the house of Judah. Soo first off it is made with ethnic Israel, not the church or any other group of people.

I will let you respond.

 

[heymikey80]

The New Covenant as the Bible states it is far more than this (Lk 22:20, 1 Cor 11:25-27, 2 Cor 3:5-8, Gal 4:24-26, Heb 9:15-17, cf Heb 8:6-13 Heb 12:23-24).

The New Covenant is certainly made with Israel and Judah, doubtless. That's who Jeremiah prophesied to, so that's what occupied their interests. But it also extends to Gentiles, all, and the church who is His Body. The Scriptures also state this:

For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself. Acts 2:39

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, " ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." Gal 3:8 [a promise of the Abrahamic Covenant]

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ep 2:11-13
​

By what? The Blood of Christ? What Blood is that? It's the Blood of the New Covenant.

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Lk 22:20
​

 

[Jerrysch]

The New Covenant as the Bible states it is far more than this (Lk 22:20, 1 Cor 11:25-27, 2 Cor 3:5-8, Gal 4:24-26, Heb 9:15-17, cf Heb 8:6-13 Heb 12:23-24).

You are correct... it is more than "this" I stated myself poorly, I intended to say where was the New Covenant first presented.

 

[heymikey80]

No prob, and no objection to the way you stated it, just making sure the covenant's not mistaken for stopping there.

 

[Jerrysch]

No prob, and no objection to the way you stated it, just making sure the covenant's not mistaken for stopping there.

I will be quite honest with you on this.... The New Covenant is on my list of current studies, and I am looking into how a covenant which was clearly given to ethnic Israel has relavance to members of the body of Christ who are not "of Israel".

 

[ddub85]

@ heymikey

The New Covenant as the Bible states it is far more than this (Lk
22:20, 1 Cor 11:25-27, 2 Cor 3:5-8, Gal 4:24-26, Heb 9:15-17, cf Heb
8:6-13 Heb 12:23-24).

NONE of these verses say that Gentiles are under the New Covenant. Doesn't that even bother you? The Bible NEVER says we Gentiles are to be under the New Covenant, or that it's for us. That doesn't even
concern you?

The New Covenant is certainly made with Israel and Judah, doubtless. That's who Jeremiah prophesied to, so that's what occupied their interests. But it also extends to Gentiles, all, and the church who is His Body. The Scriptures also state this: For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself. Acts 2:39

"THE PROMISE"!... the SINGLE promise is for us. Which single promise is Peter speaking of?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The SINGLE promise of salvation, which is Christ. It's all we need!!!

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, " ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." Gal 3:8 [a promise of the Abrahamic
Covenant]

"THE PROMISE"!... This is the SINGLE promise that Paul carefully
pulled out of the PROMISES (plural) given to Abraham. Paul carefully
removed this ONE PROMISE, and said it included Gentiles. He mentioned
none of the other promises in association with Gentiles, yet you do.
Don't you see a problem with that?

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ep 2:11-13

"THE PROMISE"!... That is what is reiterated in this verse. We are no longer strangers, we are included in THE SINGLE PROMISE, and all that it entails. It's very clear and unambiguous.

By what? The Blood of Christ? What Blood is that? It's the Blood of the New Covenant. And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This
cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Lk 22:20

Yes, and it's also the blood of the Old Covenant. THAT is surely undeniable, but I'm sure you just forgot to mention that fact. One covenant was obtained, and the other was established. The blood was for both.

God Bless!

 

[Jerrysch]

@ heymikey


NONE of these verses say that Gentiles are under the New Covenant. Doesn't that even bother you? The Bible NEVER says we Gentiles are to be under the New Covenant, or that it's for us. That doesn't even
concern you?



God Bless!

Well it concernes me.

 

[pehkay]

Bleh ... in the new covenant, there is no Jews or Greek, but Christ is all and in all.

So why the concern? Christ as destroyed the middle wall of partiton and join the Jews and Greek into one new man.