Is prayer superfluous?

[sheratan]

First of all, I'm an atheistic agnost, i.e. I don't know for sure if a deity exists but I consider it unlikely. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume the existence of the Christian God.

One of the attributes that is assigned to God is his omnicience, God knows everything from the past, present and future. When someone (say, Jane) prays and asks for something (e.g. a request for insight how to act w.r.t. some relationship), she is in fact asking God to change his mind and do something that he would not have done if the request wasn't made. Now suppose that God did provide that insight, that might actually result in Jane acting differently than she would have without the insight. But if she does so, that would imply that she acts differenly from what God foresaw before her prayer, thus at a certain moment (within our spacetime) God did not correctly foresee the future which renders him not omnicient.

IMO either prayer is superfluous because God is omnicient and already knows what will happen in the future whether you pray for it or not, or prayer actually changes God's mind which implies that he's not omnicient. What's your opinion?

Regards,
Rob

 

[DailyBlessings]

Neither, actually. The ultimate goal of prayer is communication, IMO, so any other outcome of the action is irrelevant to me. I realize some expect prayer to work like animistic magic, but I consider that to be somewhat of a misuse.

Though incidentally, I don't see how God changing his mind on a future action would make him not omniscient, since he would be fully aware of the change he was making. Past, present, and future are irrelevant to an omnipotent power.

 

[sheratan]

Though incidentally, I don't see how God changing his mind on a future action would make him not omniscient, since he would be fully aware of the change he was making. Past, present, and future are irrelevant to an omnipotent power.

Because changing his mind implies that before he did that he had a different knowledge of what would happen in the future than after he did that. So if the furture of after he changed his mind is the correct one, he had an incorrect view of the future previously which implies that he's not omnicient. Omnipotency is irrelevant here.

But you agree that asking for favors or some healing in a prayer is nonsensical?

Regards,
Rob

 

[DailyBlessings]

Because changing his mind implies that before he did that he had a different knowledge of what would happen in the future than after he did that. So if the furture of after he changed his mind is the correct one, he had an incorrect view of the future previously which implies that he's not omnicient. Omnipotency is irrelevant here.

Well, as long as he is at all points in the decision aware of its eventual outcome, I don't see a problem. But I don't see future or past as something static to begin with. I guess if we were all on some irrevocable "track" I could see where you are coming from, but I don't think this is the case.

But you agree that asking for favors or some healing in a prayer is nonsensical?

Not if that is what is important to you. Expecting it to work like a magic trick might be.

 

[graysparrow]

Prayer is to love God. Love is the essence (so to speak) of prayer.

 

[Merlin]

A primary purpose of prayer is to provide self congruence between one's own mind and heart.

 

[PapaLandShark]

Hi Sheraton...Welcome to CF ( I'm assuming here from your post count )

There is a huge discussion on this over in the General Apologetics area ( actually another one...but who's counting? ). You might want to pop over there and check it out as well.

Peace

 

[SedjmNeter]

Pray also in the fullness of your joy and in the days of your abundance. For what is prayer but the expansion of your self into the living ether?
And if it is your comfort to pour your darkness into space it is also for your delight to pour forth the dawning of your heart. And if you cannot but weep when your soul summons you into prayer, then She should spur you again and yet again through weeping until you shall come laughing.
When you pray you rise to meet in the air those who are praying at that very hour, and whom save in prayer you may not meet...

FROM THE HOLY TABLETS


SHEM HETEP

 

[Danhalen]

Prayer as petition is an effort in futility.

 

[sheratan]

Well, as long as he is at all points in the decision aware of its eventual outcome, I don't see a problem. But I don't see future or past as something static to begin with. I guess if we were all on some irrevocable "track" I could see where you are coming from, but I don't think this is the case.

Hmmm, can you do anything about the past?.

Not if that is what is important to you. Expecting it to work like a magic trick might be.

What exactly is your position? Can you or can yo not change God's mind with prayer and if you can, is he or is he not omnicient?

Regards,
Rob

 

[sheratan]

Prayer is to love God. Love is the essence (so to speak) of prayer.

I can sympathise there. One can pray somnething like ''Thank you God for this and for that'' but I don't see any purpose for praying ''God, can you take care of a speedy recovery of my sister?''. I hear both kinds of prayers being spoken by Christians around me, often during the same prayer but one type seems futile to me, maybe the other one too.

Regards,
Rob

 

[sheratan]

Hi Sheraton...Welcome to CF ( I'm assuming here from your post count )

Thanks for the welcome. Indeed, I haven't been around very long yet. I hope to learn a lot here.

There is a huge discussion on this over in the General Apologetics area ( actually another one...but who's counting? ). You might want to pop over there and check it out as well.

Could you please provide a link (or a name of the thread)? I could't find it that easily.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[DailyBlessings]

Hmmm, can you do anything about the past?.

The past ceases to be objective, if the present ever was, the moment after it is created. At least to our perception. The past is manipulated all the time, by both natural and human processes. I work with the archaeological record as part of my job, and maintain no illusions as to its biased nature.

What exactly is your position? Can you or can yo not change God's mind with prayer and if you can, is he or is he not omnicient?

I don't have a position, really. Neither option would bother me much, but I do consider God to be both omniscient and omnipotent in either case. And I do have a problem with people presenting god with a list of demands, so to speak- that isn't a very good goal.

 

[KCDAD]

I think it is instructive for those who profess to be followers of Jesus to understand the prayer he taught his disciples...
Our Father who dwells in Heaven

 

[KCDAD]

Sorry...
Our Father who dwells in Heaven
(God is not mine, he is ours)
Your name shall be held in high esteem
Your Kingdom come, your will be done
(Love and peace fellowship of mankind will come to those who follow your will and your plan for the universe is being done)
on Earth as it is in Heaven
(in practice as well as in theory)
You give to us our daily needs
And you forgive us our faults as we forgive those who injure us
You lead us not into temptation (we do that ourselves), (but when we do mess up) you deliver us from evil
All authority, power and glory come from and belong to you.

This is a prayer of worship and acknowledgement and thanks... it is not a "give me" prayer.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

First of all, I'm an atheistic agnost, i.e. I don't know for sure if a deity exists but I consider it unlikely. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume the existence of the Christian God.

One of the attributes that is assigned to God is his omnicience, God knows everything from the past, present and future. When someone (say, Jane) prays and asks for something (e.g. a request for insight how to act w.r.t. some relationship), she is in fact asking God to change his mind and do something that he would not have done if the request wasn't made. Now suppose that God did provide that insight, that might actually result in Jane acting differently than she would have without the insight. But if she does so, that would imply that she acts differenly from what God foresaw before her prayer, thus at a certain moment (within our spacetime) God did not correctly foresee the future which renders him not omnicient.

IMO either prayer is superfluous because God is omnicient and already knows what will happen in the future whether you pray for it or not, or prayer actually changes God's mind which implies that he's not omnicient. What's your opinion?

Regards,
Rob

Prayer is simply talking to God, not to change minds or gain anything...it's just like talking to your friend. How can you know your friend if you never talk to them or allow them to talk to you. Prayer is also two ways: God talks to us and we talk to Him.

 

[Rosa Mystica]

I tend to agree with those who say that prayer should be about communicating with God. Is prayer superfluous? The simple answer is: it depends how and why it's done.

 

[PapaLandShark]

Thanks for the welcome. Indeed, I haven't been around very long yet. I hope to learn a lot here.
Could you please provide a link (or a name of the thread)? I could't find it that easily.

Thanks,
Rob

Sheratan: Try here *clicky*