Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy? (2)

This is the crux of what I am trying to share:

Olam and Temporary Ages.
Of the fact that olam is used to denote limited periods, notice has been often taken in incidental cases; such as, “He shall be his servant forever;” i.e., for his olam or his aion, in this case his life (Ex. xxi. 5). But no proper notice has been taken of the extent and variety of this usage. Let us, then, take a general survey of temporary ages, and of the application of olam and aion to them.

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I have no doubt this is the case.

The Greek scholars who translated the OT into their language used aion for use of olam, including when olam is speaking of finite time duration.

They knew their own language.

Der Uber, your highlighting of all the inclosed lexicons is still very selective, I could highlight more areas that show punishment (and Olam and Aionios for that matter) agree with my definition. The words still have contexts. And many of your highlights don't come close to supporting ET.

Your passages of death prove my point, death is death, and it is contrasted with life. We are all under the sentence of death, that is how scripture describes the sinner. Scripture, Jesus, and the other writers describe people who are living as dead, because we are all under the judgment of death. In fact this is the main point of Conditionalism: life is a condition. No one has life but the Son, and unless you are in the Son, you do not have life (even the dead are raised dead, but conscious, they do not possess eternal life). Thank you for listing my scriptures for me.

zelosravioli said:

Der Uber, your highlighting of all the inclosed lexicons is still very selective, I could highlight more areas that show punishment (and Olam and Aionios for that matter) agree with my definition. The words still have contexts. And many of your highlights don't come close to supporting ET.

Your passages of death prove my point, death is death, and it is contrasted with life. We are all under the sentence of death, that is how scripture describes the sinner. Scripture, Jesus, and the other writers describe people who are living as dead, because we are all under the judgment of death. In fact this is the main point of Conditionalism: life is a condition. No one has life but the Son, and unless you are in the Son, you do not have life. Thank you for listing my scriptures for me.

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Meaningless generalities. "many, most, some, I could highlight," etc, etc.

Judgment of death is not literally death! Dead in sins is not literally dead! How can the literally dead bury the dead? Dead to sins is not literally dead! Baptized into death is not literally dead! Being carnally minded is not literally dead! Not loving one's brother is not literally dead!

Generalities are almost always true, you on the other hand are posting huge blocks of definitions that are meaningless if they are not examined in their context. You wrote a previous post that implied that all Jews including Jesus taught eternal punishment, was your post of the lexicons and dictionarys also meant to prove eternal is always the meaning of every use of the word aionios or olam?

The context of scripture defines the penalty for sin: punishment and death.

So death is not literally death? What is it then to you, life?
Does death have any meaning then? When an unbeliever dies, are they raised alive? Doesn’t that mean the unbeliever never died? Would that mean the punishment for sin is life?

Obviously we are still alive now, but we are under the sentence of death, and we will all die, eventually, like it was promised in the Garden. There is no promise that the unbeliever or sinner will ever have ‘life’ again after death. Like here, and in Jesus' time, they are the walking dead. They are still dead in sins and trespasses post-mortem also, are they not? This is what Jesus and the biblical writers are saying.

Death is the opposite of life: eventually we die, unless we are alive.

Generalities are almost always true, you on the other hand are posting huge blocks of definitions that are meaningless if they are not examined in their context. You wrote a previous post that implied that all Jews including Jesus taught eternal punishment, was your post of the lexicons and dictionarys also meant to prove eternal is always the meaning of every use of the word aionios or olam?

The context of scripture defines the penalty for sin: punishment and death.

So death is not literally death? What is it then to you, life?
Does death have any meaning then? When an unbeliever dies, are they raised alive? Doesn’t that mean the unbeliever never died? That would mean the punishment for sin is life,

Obviously we are still alive now, but we are under the sentence of death, and we will all die, eventually, like it was promised in the Garden. There is no promise that the unbeliever or sinner will ever have ‘life’ again after death, like here they are the walking dead, they are still dead in sins and trespasses post mortem also, right? This is what Jesus and the biblical writers are saying.

Death is the opposite of life: eventually we die, unless we are alive.

yogosans14 said:

No. But it is if you attack those who believe in the doctrine of Hell then yes it is.

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You're making a little joke there, but the real point should be this--

If you don't believe that Hell is actually as it's been historically represented, it's not a heresy, but if you redefine the nature of the soul in the process, it becomes a heresy.

zelosravioli said:

Generalities are almost always true, you on the other hand are posting huge blocks of definitions that are meaningless if they are not examined in their context. You wrote a previous post that implied that all Jews including Jesus taught eternal punishment, was your post of the lexicons and dictionarys also meant to prove eternal is always the meaning of every use of the word aionios or olam?

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Generalities may contain a small grain of truth. They are still meaningless. If you think anything I posted is incorrect quote the post and indentify any error, failing to do so renders your accusation meaningless. Had you bothered to actually read the nine sources I quoted you would have seen that in every instant the context was supplied. My post was to prove from irrefutable Greek sources that aionios did mean eternal, unending, everlasting etc, when many antis claim it never does.

The context of scripture defines the penalty for sin: punishment and death.

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The penalty for sin is death, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, it is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment. All mankind, 100%, have sinned, will die once and be judged. Your proof text does not say the penalty for sin is to die twice.

So death is not literally death? What is it then to you, life?
Does death have any meaning then? When an unbeliever dies, are they raised alive? Doesn’t that mean the unbeliever never died? Would that mean the punishment for sin is life?

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False accusation. See response immediately above. What part of "once" do you not understand?

Obviously we are still alive now, but we are under the sentence of death, and we will all die, eventually, like it was promised in the Garden. There is no promise that the unbeliever or sinner will ever have ‘life’ again after death. Like here, and in Jesus' time, they are the walking dead. They are still dead in sins and trespasses post-mortem also, are they not? This is what Jesus and the biblical writers are saying.

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Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:21-23, 31:32, Luk 16:19-31

Death is the opposite of life: eventually we die, unless we are alive.

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Once!

Hebrews 9:27 does not suggest anyone is given 'life' after death. I tried to explain, we weren’t given a judgment of death just so we could move on to the next phase of ‘life’. The penalty for sin is death, first the body then the soul in the LOF. Traditionalists assume the soul cannot die, Conditionalists believe eternal life is a condition:
‘… there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God’ (Hebrews 10:27)
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
Jesus also died, but because He has the power of indestructible life, death could not keep Him. Only Jesus (because He is God) has eternal life, and immortality. The only life that is eternal and immortal is the life in the Son, those who are not in the Son do not have this life, it is a condition of belief. The righteous are raised to life, and unbelievers to judgment, punishment, and the second death, the ultimate end of life.
... who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. (Hebrews 7:16)
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, you must be born again… so is everyone who is born of the Spirit"... Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?... If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?... that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life... that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life... "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:6-18)
The believer has the Judgment lifted, the unbeliever is still under the judgment, and will perish (don't all believers die a literal death also, so Jesus is not speaking of perishing in this world).
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24)
The judgment of death does not go away because one dies, sinners are still are guilty, and will perish in fire, after the Judgment, and after punishment. Remember Conditionalists believe that fire consumes and life is a Conditional.

Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:21-23, 31:32, Luke 16:19-31

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I don’t know why you stated the verses, they assert my point, all the judged unrighteous in the grave are 'still' under the 'judgment of death'. I affirm the dead are possibly conscious and suffering (I am not an annihilationist, I said). Nothing in Luke 16 speaks of ‘eternal’ torment (and Jesus is probably describing conditions proceeding The Final Judgment and LOF).

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself” (John 5:24-26)
The dead may rise, but only the believer hears and believes his word, and is given the eternal life that Jesus speak of. And does not come into judgment.

zelosravioli said:

The dead may rise, but only the believer hears and believes his word, and is given the eternal life that Jesus speak of. And does not come into judgment.

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κόλασις kolasis From G2849; penal infliction:

κόλασις PUNISH (-ED.) to curtail, dock, prune, but visually like Lat., castigare, to keep within bounds, check, chastise; pass., to be punished, generally.(In N.T. the future punisJiment of sin is clearly defined as,death and destruction.) (non occ.)
2Th 1:9 οιτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αιώνιον απὸ προσώπου του Κυρίου καὶ απὸ της δόξης της ισχύος αυτου,
δικη, right, esp. a judicial process, justice, vengeance.
, to hold worth, honour, to pay for a wrong done. Here, " a penalty shall pay "— 2 Thes. i. 9.
*ολεθριος [for ολεθρος , 2Thes. i.9, see ' Destruction."] destruction, 4.

ασβεστος ,uuquenched ; used of fire, that which cannot be put out, not necessarily that which will never go out. ["In Homer the word is applied to undying fame, prolonged laughter, the incessant roar of the ocean, and indefatigable strength. So in the Prophets, it is used of a fire that has gone out, but which could not be put out until it had consumed all that on which it fed, thus denoting the inevitable destruction and the eternal result of such an awful punishment.
See 2 Kings xxii. 17 ; Is. xxxiv, 8-10; Jer. vii. 20; xvii. 27 ; Ezek. XX. 47, 48; and Jude 7. With this agrees the solemn declaration of the Lord Jesus here (Matt. iii.12 ; Luke iii.17) that " He will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire."] (occ. Mark ix. 43, 45.) Matt. iii. 12. I Luke iii. 17.
Bullinger

zelosravioli said:

Hebrews 9:27 does not suggest anyone is given 'life' after death. I tried to explain, we weren’t given a judgment of death just so we could move on to the next phase of ‘life’. The penalty for sin is death, first the body then the soul in the LOF. Traditionalists assume the soul cannot die, Conditionalists believe eternal life is a condition:...

The judgment of death does not go away because one dies, sinners are still are guilty, and will perish in fire, after the Judgment, and after punishment. Remember Conditionalists believe that fire consumes and life is a Conditional.
I don’t know why you stated the verses, they assert my point, all the judged unrighteous in the grave are 'still' under the 'judgment of death'. I affirm the dead are possibly conscious and suffering (I am not an annihilationist, I said). Nothing in Luke 16 speaks of ‘eternal’ torment (and Jesus is probably describing conditions proceeding The Final Judgment and LOF).

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You are not an annihilationist but you believe that the soul will be destroyed in the LOF, sinners will perish in the fire, will be consumed in the fire? If the torment in Luke 16 is not eternal when and how does it end? Abraham said that those on the rich man's side cannot cross over to Abraham and vice versa.

Generally most 'Annihlationists' have traditionally believed like what the JWs believe, that the soul perishes at death and does not raise again (I would argue that sinners are raised to face the judgment). Conditionalists believe the soul is 'eventually' annihilated post-mortem (or the soul ceases to exist, is destroyed, dies) 'after punishment' in the LOF. As a Conditionalist I believe everything that traditionalism holds to, except for the 'length' of the punishment, and the belief that man is immortal.

It seems commonly believed that Luke 16 is describing conditions of 2 persons after death, but preceding the Final Judgment and the LOF. Just as Abrahams bosom, or Paradise is temporal and proceeds the New Heaven and Earth and probably the wedding of the Lamb etc. So the rich mans position will progress also to the White Throne Judgment, and then death and Hades are thrown into the LOF. At least that's my take on it...

zelosravioli said:

And I agree with 'most' all the above concerning Aionios, having gone through this before, yet remember Aionios is used of a few things in scripture that have come to an end. But it comes back to Matt 25:46 (the only passage I find that could argue for 'eternal' torture). But 'what' does the passage mean by Kolasis? The verse seems to come from Daniel, and Daniel does not suggest eternal torture. Is the cutting off (kolasis) for eternity? Is it the 'result' of punishment (death) that is eternal? (yes, according to all other scriptures). Or is it that the Judgment, the contempt, and the fire that is eternal? (I think the latter)

Death means death, life means life, only God is immortal, God is Just, and Life still is the opposite of death. And like other parallelisms this contrast between life and death is repeated throughout scripture. Such as elsewhere in Matthew and Daniel.

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Why did God invent time and space in the first place?

Could it have been invented to teach us humility.......... without which we would not be able to dwell in the presence of God?


Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience | Saved from Hell By Jesus Christ | Prophecies of the Future

They explained to me that I was very underdeveloped and that it would be of great benefit to return to my physical existence to learn. In my human life I would have an opportunity to grow so that the next time I was with them I would be more compatible. I would need to develop important characteristics to become like them and to be involved with the work that they do. Responding that I couldn't go back, I tried to argue with them, and I observed that if I bear that thought the thought that I might wind up in the pit again I pled with them to stay.

My friends then said, "Do you think that we expect you to be perfect, after all the love we feel for you, even after you were on Earth blaspheming God, and treating everyone around you like dirt? And this, despite the fact that we were sending people to try and help you, to teach you the truth? Do you really think we would be apart from you now?"

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