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I do not believe it is irrelevant and I don't believe the word is used hyperbolically.
The Greek scholars who penned the Greek OT knew their own language. aion need not require eternal time duration, rather the duration is also dependent on the nature of the object.
Kind of like the english word always.
This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?"
b. His Guided Tour of the Earthbound Realm with Jesus
Then Jesus begins to take Ritchie on a journey through various realms of the afterlife. They fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. They witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to grab a cigarette from the workers who were oblivious to her presence. This woman had died severely addicted to cigarettes and was now cut off from the one thing she desperately desired most.
Ritchie realizes how the spirits in these realms immediately know the thoughts of other spirits around them. This is the reason they tend to group together with other spirits. It is too threatening to be around others who knew and disagreed with their thoughts.
Jesus leads Ritchie to a house somewhere on Earth where he is shown the spirit of a young man following his living family members around and begging them for forgiveness. But the family members are completely unaware of his presence. Jesus tells Ritchie the young man committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."
They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over.
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c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"
Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)
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d. His Description of the Horrors of Hell
They were still somewhere on the surface of the Earth; but no living person or beings of light could be seen. Before them was a plain jammed with hordes of spirits who are the most miserable and angriest beings he has ever seen. Many were engaged in hand-to-hand combat with no weapons - trying in vain to hurt and kill those who didn't agree with them. A lot of verbal abuse could be heard between them as their thoughts could be heard by everyone around them the moment they are thought. Ritchie is horrified as he wonders what living in such a realm would be like - a place where you cannot hide from who you really are. These spirits were locked into destructive thought-patterns, rage and uncontrollable lust. Some were trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. The wailing coming from the hordes of unsatisfied spirits was tremendous. Other spirits were in despair saying things such as, "I always knew!" and "Didn't I warn you!" Ritchie realizes this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either - only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn't abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.
I have been told that the word translated "forever" in the original Hebrew as well as in the Greek means....."until the end of conditions last." This phrase would fit extremely well with what Christian near death experiencer Dr. George Ritchie saw regarding hell.
If the amarynth is an everlasting flower that fades not away (αμαραντοςWhat you "believe" without supporting evidence is pretty much irrelevant. the word "aionios" very definitely has the meaning forever, eternal, unending, everlasting.
I don't know what you might have been told or by whom but in my [post=66359018]Post #980[/post] in the previous thread I cite nine irrefutable Greek sources all of which document that the Greek word Aionios means eternal, unending, everlasting.
I don't consider random NDEs as authoritative on Biblical truths. Some of the things in the NDE are not supported by or contradict scripture.
Howard Storm's light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.
"You seek to know and walk in My power so that you can heal the sick and perform miracles, but you have not even begun to comprehend the power of My word. To RESURRECT ALL THE DEAD WHO EVER LIVED ON EARTH WILL NOT EVEN CAUSE ME TO STRAIN. I uphold all things by the power of My word. The creation exists because of My word, and it is held together by My word." (Rick Joyner, page 176, The Vision, emphasis mine)
I believe I cited supporting evidence. Greek interpreters of the OT who used the same Greek word to describe events of finite time duration.What you "believe" without supporting evidence is pretty much irrelevant.
Der Alter,
I believe I cited supporting evidence. Greek interpreters of the OT who used the same Greek word to describe events of finite time duration.
You claimed the use was "hyperbolic," a claim absent supporting evidence.
o2
I am unable to cite urls. I found this on line and it is referred to as The Best of Tentmaker and is Chapter 17 of a book.
THE SEPTUAGINT
But the biography of that momentous word, aion would be incomplete if I should neglect to notice its destinies in connection with the Septuagint; that is, the Greek translation of the Old Testament made at Alexandria, according to tradition, by seventy translators, over two centuries before Christ. Think what it was. It was practically the only bible of the early church, and it had been in use over four centuries when Christ came. It furnished terms for the theology of the early church. By a careful examination of it we can be sure of the usage of aion and aionios when Christ came. The word aion occurs in it about four hundred times in every variety of combination. The adjective aionios derived from it, is used over one hundred times, and often in circumstances imparting to it an absolute definiteness of meaning; It is always pleasant to pass from the ground of mere opinion to that of absolute certainty. This was never more possible than in the present case.
In this translation (aion) is universally used as the equivalent of olam. What, then, is the meaning of olam? Is it eternity? I answer, no. It is derived from a verb denoting to hide, or to conceal, and denotes a period of time past or future, the boundaries of which are concealed, obscure, unseen, or unknown. So say Taylor and Furst in their Hebrew Concordances. It is true of eternity, past and future, that their boundaries are unseen and unknown. But it is also true of other undefined periods that are not eternal, and that may be called ages or dispensations. Of olam thus viewed aion is the universal representative.
Moreover, in the Septuagint the adjective aionios for the first time came into extensive use, for previously it had been rarely used in all Greek literature. And as aion denoted an age, great or small, so the adjective aionios expressed the idea pertaining to or belonging to the aion, whether great or small. Cremer, taking aion as denoting time, defines aionios as belonging to the aion, that is, to time in its movement. But in every case this adjective derives its character and duration from the aion to which it refers.
Let us now enter the Hebrew Bible, and the Septuagint version of it, and note the use of olam and its equivalent aion, and its adjective aionios. Olam has no Hebrew adjective, but certain forms of it are rendered by the Greek aionios. Thus a covenant of olam is rendered an aioinian covenant.
Creation, Time, and eternity, in the Old Testament.
On entering the Old Testament, two great facts strike us the absolute eternity of God, and the absolute creation of all things by him. There is no self-existent matter, as in the Greek philosophy, to limit the former of the universe, and to give rise to moral evil by its intractable nature, as in the Platonic and Gnostic systems.
Again, we find in the Old Testament no Platonic speculations as to an eternity in which there is no past or future, but one eternal now. On the other hand, all time is divided into the present, the past, and the future. Time, also, is divided in two ways: one by the measurements of the solar system, which God is represented as making to measure time by days, hours, weeks, months, and years; the other by indefinite periods.
Olam.
This indefinite division of time is represented by olam (Greek, aion). Hence we find, since there are many ages or periods, that the word is used in the plural. Moreover, since one great period or age can comprehend under it subordinate ages, we find such expressions as an age of ages, or an olam of olams, or an aion of aions, and other reduplications.
Olam and Temporary Ages.
Of the fact that olam is used to denote limited periods, notice has been often taken in incidental cases; such as, He shall be his servant forever; i.e., for his olam or his aion, in this case his life (Ex. xxi. 5). But no proper notice has been taken of the extent and variety of this usage. Let us, then, take a general survey of temporary ages, and of the application of olam and aion to them.
There are six ages, or aggregates of ages, involving temporary systems, spoken of in the Old Testament.
These ages are distinctly stated to be temporary, and yet to them all are applied olam and aion and their reduplications, as fully and as emphatically as they are to God. This is positive demonstration that the word olam, as is confirmed by Taylor and Furst in their Hebrew Concordances, means an indefinite period or age, past or future, and not an absolute eternity. When applied to God, the idea of eternity is derived from him and not from the word.
too bad you did not cite the LXX alongside the Hebrew OT.
Der Alter:
The internet fallacy. "If somebody posts something on the internet it must be true." This is something written by an anonymous person at tentmakers, without any stated or demonstrated credentials in Hebrew or Greek, who except for one mention of Taylor and Furst, cited no evidence of any kind lexical or historical. Please review the Greek sources I cited in my back to back posts above.
Assertions I will assume serve the purpose to nullify the content of the excerpt.
1. Lack of stated or demonstrated credentials.
Christ had no such demonstrated credentials. I 100% find this assertion to pack absolutely no weight whatsoever and it is thereby rejected.
2. Anonymous person
I 100% find this assertion to pack absolutely no weight whatsoever and it is thereby rejected.
3. Little lexical or historical sourcing
I 100% find this assertion to pack absolutely no weight whatsoever and it is thereby rejected.
What the anonymous source did do is:
1. Examine the Hebrew and Greek OT's side by side.
2. Find that the Greek aion is used interchangeably with the Hebrew olam.
3. Share the fact that olam is extensively used for periods of finite time duration.
To be candid, my own reason, imperfect though it may be, finds your manner of assessment of the truth to be sufficiently erroneous that I am forced to conclude that reviewing your Greek sources is a complete waste of my time.
I am not judging your heart here, just your head.
And I agree with 'most' all the above concerning Aionios, having gone through this before, yet remember Aionios is used of a few things in scripture that have come to an end. But it comes back to Matt 25:46 (the only passage I find that could argue for 'eternal' torture). But 'what' does the passage mean by Kolasis? The verse seems to come from Daniel, and Daniel does not suggest eternal torture. Is the cutting off (kolasis) for eternity? Is it the 'result' of punishment (death) that is eternal? (yes, according to all other scriptures). Or is it that the Judgment, the contempt, and the fire that is eternal? (I think the latter)
Death means death, life means life, only God is immortal, God is Just, and Life still is the opposite of death. And like other parallelisms this contrast between life and death is repeated throughout scripture. Such as elsewhere in Matthew and Daniel.
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