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In terms of the Catholic religion, Islam is a heretical point of view, born not in the heart of the Christian world, but on the periphery. It maintains something of the original Catholic truth, such as the immortality of the soul, and the omnipotence of an all-merciful Creator, but it denies the essential truth of the Incarnation of Christ.Bookofknowledge said:lets go in little bit of details, what is the reason for you not acknowledge my Prophet as Prophet? go on list your reason if you are truely interested in debate...I would request to keep it short because you can always keep adding later while we debate each point one at a time that way I don't have to read and response on a 3 pages long....
do you think GOD needs 40 writers over a span of 1600 years and 3 languages on hundreds of subjects to to educate mankind His laws and the signs of Day of Judgement?Crispie said:The Quran was made by one man, at one time. Unlike the bible, that after 40 writers over a span of 1600 years and 3 languages on hundreds of subjects, has yet to be inconsistant and non contradictory. Thats quite impressive, unlike a book that was written based off one man at one time.
you said something about "coming from pagan roots, and schooled by jewish sages" aren't you aware that Muhammad was an orphan he never went to any school and didn't knew how to read and write...solomon said:In terms of the Catholic religion, Islam is a heretical point of view, born not in the heart of the Christian world, but on the periphery. It maintains something of the original Catholic truth, such as the immortality of the soul, and the omnipotence of an all-merciful Creator, but it denies the essential truth of the Incarnation of Christ.
For this reason, Mohammed will always be considered a false prophet for Catholics. All the Hebrew prophets and the ceremonial laws of the ancient Hebrew religion prepared the way for Immanuel, God among us. Jesus Christ, the Second person of the Trinity, fulfills all the prophets and all the laws that went before.
In fact, the minute details of the writings of the Bible that point to the life of Jesus, as the Christian world knows Him, are a great deal of the reason why many of us have come to believe in the God of Abraham and Moses at all.
Yet this is what Mohammed denies. This is not something peripheral to the Catholic faith. Without the incarnation of God, without the cross, without the resurrection, the actual core teaching of Christianity is destroyed.
Coming from pagan roots, and schooled by Jewish sages, Mohammed never really seemed to have grasped this about the Christian faith. He was too much on the periphery of the Christian world to really understand that no orthodox Christian could ever accept such a teaching.
But the fact remains, the 'Isa' of Mohammed resembles the Jesus of the Gospels about as much as a Hollywood movie resembles history.
To accept the prophecy of Mohammed does not just reform the Catholic worldview. It falsifies it.
Uhmm so when the Quran is replaced what happens? After all, according to you all the others were replaced so evidently there is a time limit on sacred writings.History informs us that GOD has alway sent his messenger with message and no more then ONE BOOK at a time..
Yes, his illiteracy explains a lot. If he had been able to actually read the Bible and the Gospels, his message may well have been very different...you said something about "coming from pagan roots, and schooled by jewish sages" aren't you aware that Muhammad was an orphan he never went to any school and didn't knew how to read and write...
Yes , Catholics are agree. The Father and the Son are One, in the unity of the Holy Spirit.When you say GOD is One you can not divide GOD into three parts
Anybody that agrees that Jesus was a real person agrees that he was born.Islam does not deny the birth of Jesus (AS), He was born to a human.
On the contrary, the False Prophet in the end days will cause the multitudes to marvel. Even today false prophets and anti-christs abound, and lead many astray. This is as it has always been.False Prophets were never blessed with miracles, False Prophets were never blessed with Information which is being proved by todays technology, False Prophets were not able to tell signs of Day of Judgement and what will happen in future... False Prophets always wanted worldly gains where as real prophets alway claimed they are not seeking reward for the message they brought forth for people by GOD.
This passage demonstrates some of the Old Testament values so evident in Isaiah, for one, about showing kindness to the orphan, and taking care of the oppressed. The Catholic catechism itself instructs us to acknowledge what we share in common with Moslem and Jew, such as the common concern of all three monothiestic religions for the poor and the oppressed, the perfect justice of God, and our final judgment by this merciful and just God of all.By the morning,
and the ten nights (first ten days of Dhul-Hijja),
the even and the odd,
and the night when it departs!
Is there not in these an oath (enough evidence) for those who use their common sense?
Have you not seen how your Rabb dealt with 'Ad?
The residents of Iram, the city of lofty pillars,
the like of which had never been built in other cities.
And with the people of Thamud who hewed out their dwellings in the rocks of the valley?
And with Fir'on (Pharaoh) the owner of stakes?
They all transgressed beyond bounds in their cities,
and committed great mischief therein.
Therefore, your Rabb let loose on them His scourge of torment.
Surely your Rabb is ever watchful.
As for man, when his Rabb tries him through giving him honor and blessings, he says: "My Rabb is bountiful to me."
But when He tries him through restricting his subsistence, he says: "My Rabb has humiliated me."
Nay! But you did not show kindness to the orphan,
nor did you encourage each other in feeding the poor.
Greedily you lay your hands on the inheritance of the weak,
and you love wealth with all your hearts.
Nay! You should know, when the earth will be pounded to powder,
your Rabb will come, with angels standing in ranks,
hell shall be brought in sight. On that Day man will remember his deeds, but how is that remembrance going to profit him?
He will say: "Alas! Would that I had sent forth some good deeds for this life of mine."
None can punish as Allah will punish on that Day,
and none can bind as He will bind.
To the righteous soul it will be said: "O fully satisfied soul!
Return to your Rabb, well pleased with Him and well-pleasing to Him.
Join My servants,
and enter My paradise."
John the Baptist and Jesus ministered concurrently, although neither wrote a book. (Jesus did write in the dirt on at least one occasion, though) On the other hand, 4 'books' or gospels, and numerous epistles, or letters were written more or less concurrently to explain the messages of Jesus in particular.Bookofknowledge said:It is not a question of God's need. It is a question of our need.do you think GOD needs 40 writers over a span of 1600 years and 3 languages on hundreds of subjects to to educate mankind His laws and the signs of Day of Judgement?
History informs us that GOD has alway sent his messenger with message and no more then ONE BOOK at a time..
before one speak about what will happen when Qur'aan is replaced one has to find out what else is in Qur'aan, what signs are left which has not yet been fulfilled... when everything is fullfilled you will realise that "that will be the Day of Judgement"tulc said:Uhmm so when the Quran is replaced what happens? After all, according to you all the others were replaced so evidently there is a time limit on sacred writings.
He never claimed the message he brought forth is different because Allah prophets brought the same message... Obey Allah and there is Only One GOD without any partners... Interesting thing is If He (Prophet Muhammad (SAW)) didn't knew how to read and write how he was able to reply to the most educated people of his time with such knowledge.solomon said:Yes, his illiteracy explains a lot. If he had been able to actually read the Bible and the Gospels, his message may well have been very different....
Watch your hand carefully, take two fingers of your hand, assume one is father one is son - can they be equal as one? they can be of one family as two individuals but they can not be ONE... There is a voilation of the statement "there is one GOD"solomon said:Yes , Catholics are agree. The Father and the Son are One, in the unity of the Holy Spirit.
God should neither be divided, nor limited by the finite constraints of human reasoning. At one and the same time that we are bowing down in awe and wonder to the awesome all-powerful majesty of our King and Judge, we are loving Him as that helpless Infant, foresaken to the elements in the poverty of a lowly birth.
...Anybody that agrees that Jesus was a real person agrees that he was born.
And yes, the Virigin Mary was a human. She was never a part of the Trinity in Catholic theology. While it is not totally clear whether Mohammed mistakenly thought that Catholics included Mary in their Trinity, or whether he was referring to some heretical fringe group that existed in the periphery of the Catholic world, Catholic theology is very clear that Jesus didn't inherit His divinity from His mother, but from His Father.
This Patrilineal inheritance is the theological reason for the Virgin Birth. Far more than just some supernatural event, the Virgin Birth communicates to us about the Divine nature of Jesus. With the miraculous births of such Old Testament figures as Samson, Samuel and Isaac to prepare us in accepting this awesome truth, with the virgin birth of Jesus, God's ultimate plan concerning such phenomenon becomes fully revealed. This time, the Father Himself has provided us with His very own Son!
Even as Moslems marvel with us about the miraculous event, they display no real understanding of this message being conveyed by this sign of a Virigin giving birth of Immanuel, or 'God Who walks among us'.
Whatever Mohammed himself believed about the orthodox Marian teachings of the Catholic world of his time, it is evident that the modern followers of this man are either believing his incorrect teachings on this subject, or are interpreting his teaching incorrectly.
No Christians today believe that Mary was a part of the Trinity. (And yet, chances are the reply will always be "Yes, that really is what you Catholics believe).
Do you know how to distinguish between a true Prophet and a False one...?solomon said:On the contrary, the False Prophet in the end days will cause the multitudes to marvel. Even today false prophets and anti-christs abound, and lead many astray. This is as it has always been.
You can not ignore the fact that the amount of Information presented by Prophets who knew neither to read nor write is far more superior then the limited amount of Information proved by sicentists around the globe... 40 writers over a span of 1600 years have not yet able to grasp what one GOD has revealed to his chosen servant (Prophet).solomon said:As well, I have always found it curious that the marvels of today's secular-based technology have so often become the ultimate measure for the prophecies of so many people of all religious stripes. As often as not the technologist and scientists that are responsible for collecting the data in the first place remain underwhelmed by these so called marevlous connections to ancient scriptures
The notable exception to this, by the way, is not from either the Moslem of Christian traditions. It is the intrigue that modern physicists have with the philosophical systems of China and the Far East, which describe the quantum world of modern physics so well..
wow you have not left Satan also by saying he is a Father of some thing...Satan is an open enemy of mankind...solomon said:Satan is the Father of Lies. Many, many will be deceived by the wondrous works of this angel of the false light. Indeed many already have.
This passage demonstrates some of the Old Testament values so evident in Isaiah, for one, about showing kindness to the orphan, and taking care of the oppressed. The Catholic catechism itself instructs us to acknowledge what we share in common with Moslem and Jew, such as the common concern of all three monothiestic religions for the poor and the oppressed, the perfect justice of God, and our final judgment by this merciful and just God of all.
Bookofknowledge said:Illiteracy is not the same as stupidity. Illiteracy was common in that era, and Mohammed did learn many of his ideas from Jewish and Christian contacts orally.He never claimed the message he brought forth is different because Allah prophets brought the same message... Obey Allah and there is Only One GOD without any partners... Interesting thing is If He (Prophet Muhammad (SAW)) didn't knew how to read and write how he was able to reply to the most educated people of his time with such knowledge.
If God was my hand, this might be true.Watch your hand carefully, take two fingers of your hand, assume one is father one is son - can they be equal as one? they can be of one family as two individuals but they can not be ONE... There is a voilation of the statement "there is one GOD"
Yes, this is a Catholic idea as well. God does not have a consort in Mary, although He and the Son are One in the Unity of the Holy Spirit.Prophet Muhammad (SAW) always claimed GOD is ONE without any partners and there is nothing comparable to Him.
If a prophet contradicts the Word of God, he is a false prophet. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Mohammed contradicts Jesus. Ergo, Mohammed is a false prophet.Do you know how to distinguish between a true Prophet and a False one...?
As I have said, the scientists themselves remain underwhelmed. Science have never come upon any of their discoveries by studying the Koran, nor have any Islamic scholars become scientists through their studies of the Koran.You can not ignore the fact that the amount of Information presented by Prophets who knew neither to read nor write is far more superior then the limited amount of Information proved by sicentists around the globe... 40 writers over a span of 1600 years have not yet able to grasp what one GOD has revealed to his chosen servant (Prophet).
In Christian theology, Satan is a fallen angel.Wow you are calling Satan an angel - No he is not an angel because angels are not make of fire...
Can you prove everything Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said and taught Muslims are ideas from Jewish, christian or pagan contacts orally?solomon said:Illiteracy is not the same as stupidity. Illiteracy was common in that era, and Mohammed did learn many of his ideas from Jewish and Christian contacts orally.
Your GOD is ONE hence GOD can not be two or three entities...solomon said:If God was my hand, this might be true. Yes, this is a Catholic idea as well. God does not have a consort in Mary, although He and the Son are One in the Unity of the Holy Spirit.
Take us into little more details, Tell us the Word of God... Tell us in what ways Prophet Muhammad (SAW) contradicts Jesus (AS)...solomon said:If a prophet contradicts the Word of God, he is a false prophet. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Mohammed contradicts Jesus...
There are many scientists who accepted Islam and there are many studies done on Qur'aan and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)...solomon said:As I have said, the scientists themselves remain underwhelmed. Science have never come upon any of their discoveries by studying the Koran, nor have any Islamic scholars become scientists through their studies of the Koran.
In Christian theology, Satan is a fallen angel.
Unless the corruption has already set in? After all those other books were (by your own admission Gods word until then) what reason do you have to think the same hasn't already started in the Qur'aan? You (in the sense that some Muslims on CF have said the Bible used to be Gods word until the corruption set in) believe you have the Book of God for this time given by the Prophet for this time, yet the very same thing can be said for the people who believed the Bible is uncorrupted. What makes your belief any more correct then theirs? Just curious.two muslims are enough to write down the entire Qur'aan because of their memorization in an event all the books of the world vanishes from the face of earth... you think its that easy to replace? NO but Qur'aan will be available on earth as long as Allah wills and one of the signs of day of judgement is that Qur'aan will be lifted from hearts of muslims.
18:50S Walch said:Satan in Christianity = Fallen Angel
Satan in Islam = Not an Angel, but another species of something...don't ask why
Even today muslims will testify the Book which was revealed to Jesus(AS) was, is and will be from GOD but where is it? It can not be what we see 40 writters over the 1600 years in 3 languages...tulc said:Unless the corruption has already set in? After all those other books were (by your own admission Gods word until then) what reason do you have to think the same hasn't already started in the Qur'aan? You (in the sense that some Muslims on CF have said the Bible used to be Gods word until the corruption set in) believe you have the Book of God for this time given by the Prophet for this time, yet the very same thing can be said for the people who believed the Bible is uncorrupted. What makes your belief any more correct then theirs? Just curious.
tulc(who believes the Bible from cover to cover...and even believes the cover because it says "Holy Bible"!)
Bookofknowledge said:Everything? No... I do not think that was the point I was making. Yet, the biography of Mohammed is one in which he was in contact with Christian and Jew. Certain Koranic sayings. about Mary for one, show apparent points of contact between Mohammed;s ideas and psuedo-Christian writings. And Mohammed was illiterate, and therefore could have only have oral correspondance with Christian, Jew, and pagan.Can you prove everything Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said and taught Muslims are ideas from Jewish, christian or pagan contacts orally?
And He is not two or three entitities. This is the mystery of the Trinity.Your GOD is ONE hence GOD can not be two or three entities...
the prophet Mohammed tells us that Jesus is not crucified and resurrected. Jesus instructs us of the sign of Jonah will serve as our proof to believe that He is the Resurrection and the Life.Take us into little more details, Tell us the Word of God... Tell us in what ways Prophet Muhammad (SAW) contradicts Jesus (AS)...
Peter, for example proclaims Jesus as the Son of the Living God, and Jesus praises the Spirt Who speaks through Peter, or when Thomas prostrates himself to "My Lord and My God", and Jesus replies that those who have not seen Him and still beleive will be blessed.
It is not at all clear to me that Mohammed so believes.
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