Is masterbating considered a sin?

David Pratt · Jul 13, 2012

At the moment I stand mollified and will pray for guidance & re-read the scriptures. Thank you for the incite.

phoenixdem · Jul 13, 2012

ECBBLMSTR said:
The text from 1 Corinthians about "corruption" and corruptible refers to the process of decay, mortality... not to moral corruption or uncleanness of the body. Neither the body, the senses or sex are unclean or corrupt.

Paul's exhortations to celibacy were based upon "the present distress" and "the time is short". He never suggested that celibacy was morally superior to marriage, only that it could make life more convenient in trying times, as well as give more time to devote to the Lord. He specifically commanded that we "Hold marriage in honor in every way" and that "forbidding to marry" is a "doctrine of demons".

There really is no such thing as a "wasting of seed", in my opinion.

What is Paul talking about when he talks about a body of corruption?

Ephesians:

4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man,
which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Is Paul talking about corruption in morality and sin? I think so. The Scriptures are clear in the teaching on sex acts.

ECBBLMSTR · Jul 13, 2012

David Pratt said:
At the moment I stand mollified and will pray for guidance & re-read the scriptures. Thank you for the incite.

Thanks for the new vocabulary word!

ECBBLMSTR · Jul 13, 2012

phoenixdem said:
What is Paul talking about when he talks about a body of corruption?

Ephesians:

4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man,
which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Is Paul talking about corruption in morality and sin? I think so. The Scriptures are clear in the teaching on sex acts.

Interesting. Your mistake is that you think "the old man" or "the flesh" refers to the human body. If you research this, you'll find that is incorrect. You also think the word "lust" in that Ephesians verse refers to sexual desires, which may or may not be the case. It doesn't specify other than "deceitful" and both sin and the unconverted heart are "deceitful".

The word word translated "lust" in the Bible refers to any real desire whether holy or not. It isn't a sexual term. Furthermore, in Paul's writing, the word "flesh" isn't about the body or sex. The "old man" is who we were "in Adam"; he is the actual "old man" or fallen man, from whom we derived a fallen nature. Our existence in Adam legally came to an end on the cross when we ratified his death by accepting Christ as our Lord and Master (we were crucified with Christ). At that point, our life "in the flesh" died, and we now are "in the spirit" and live in the spirit (Rom. 8) "The flesh" is the fallen nature that still dwells in our minds and bodies and wars against the Christ nature in our spirits.

The "flesh" (Sin nature) is morally corrupt and is the original cause of our mortality, physical corruption (the day you eat of it, you shall surely die). So, there is a connection, but neither the human body or sexual function are corrupt or unclean. The Bible says marriage is to be held in honor and the marriage bed kept undefiled. A Christian who has sex with an unsaved spouse sanctifies the him and makes the children "holy" (1 Cor.7:14)

phoenixdem · Jul 13, 2012

ECBBLMSTR said:
Interesting. Your mistake is that you think "the old man" or "the flesh" refers to the human body. If you research this, you'll find that is incorrect. You also think the word "lust" in that Ephesians verse refers to sexual desires, which may or may not be the case. It doesn't specify other than "deceitful" and both sin and the unconverted heart are "deceitful".

The word word translated "lust" in the Bible refers to any real desire whether holy or not. It isn't a sexual term. Furthermore, in Paul's writing, the word "flesh" isn't about the body or sex. The "old man" is who we were "in Adam"; he is the actual "old man" or fallen man, from whom we derived a fallen nature. Our existence in Adam legally came to an end on the cross when we ratified his death by accepting Christ as our Lord and Master (we were crucified with Christ). At that point, our life "in the flesh" died, and we now are "in the spirit" and live in the spirit (Rom. 8) "The flesh" is the fallen nature that still dwells in our minds and bodies and wars against the Christ nature in our spirits.

The "flesh" (Sin nature) is morally corrupt and is the original cause of our mortality, physical corruption (the day you eat of it, you shall surely die). So, there is a connection, but neither the human body or sexual function are corrupt or unclean. The Bible says marriage is to be held in honor and the marriage bed kept undefiled. A Christian who has sex with an unsaved spouse sanctifies the him and makes the children "holy" (1 Cor.7:14)

You are quite correct that lust doesn't only pertain to sex; however, sex is included as lust pertains to any desire which could be riches, fame, sex, etc.

Christians, i.e. those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, still have the body of corruption. Christians have a new birth in Christ, but the last time I looked, I still have a physical body sold to the old nature. All Christians have the Holy Spirit in them and they have the body of corruption which wars against spiritual things.

When a Christian commits sin in the flesh, he still sins against God. That is why they are allowed to marry, i.e. they won't be tempted to have sex outside of marriage which would be a sin.

Are you Baptist?

Lillen · Jul 14, 2012

I remeber a passage from the bible were it says that they have washed their garments clean in the blood of Jesus. I am not sure what that means. If it means that they have stopped defiling themselves! But how or what they stopped doing is not mentioned.

I still have trubble sleeping in an unclean or unwashed bed.

Elijah Fischer · Jul 16, 2012

It's so amazing that most of the things which come under discussion fall into the gray areas. For instance, there are things which we definitely know are sins, such as murder, stealing, adultery, etc.
I will place emphasis on the 14th chapter of Romans where Paul is addressing the issue of the dispute among Christians as to what they could eat and what should be considered unclean. He essentially tells them that if a man considers something unclean then it is unclean to him. That if a man can eat a certain meat with a clear conscience then it is okay. In a nutshell, if it is a sin for somebody to do it, then it is a sin for them. Paul says in verse 14 that he is persuaded of the Lord Jesus their is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that believes anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Paul goes on in verses 22 and 23 to basically say, Do you have faith? Then have it to thyself before God - And happy is he that does not condemn himself in the thing which he allows - and further, he who doubts is damned if he eats, because he does not eat of faith.
And then concludes with, for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I firmly believe if you do not violate the 2 great commandments, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And Love your neighbor as yourself." Both of which Jesus said cover most of the law and the prophets, and you firmly believe before God that it is okay for you to touch - then it is 'OKAY'.

On the other hand, if you cannot do it of faith, then as Paul says, 'For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

To sum it up, in verse 17 Paul says, "For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost."

I have total faith in what I have communicated here and I really hope and pray it helps people, not only in this area, but in all of the gray areas of life.

ECBBLMSTR · Jul 16, 2012

phoenixdem said:
Christians, i.e. those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, still have the body of corruption. Christians have a new birth in Christ, but the last time I looked, I still have a physical body sold to the old nature. All Christians have the Holy Spirit in them and they have the body of corruption which wars against spiritual things.

The distinction between the body and the "flesh", I will agree, is not always that clear in the New Testament, but it is important for us to see that they aren't identical. Paul, especially, uses the term "flesh" to indicate the sinful nature, whether it is sins of the body (physical sins), or sins of the heart, (spiritual sins), such as envy, hatred, divisions or idolatry. Ephesians 2:3 shows the twofold division of the flesh being evil desires of the body and the mind. We know that the body itself isn't sinful, since Jesus was fully human, but we might think that since we are born from Adam, that our bodies are morally corrupt, slaves of sin, and thus are what is meant by the"the flesh". However, as we read Paul's study of the "flesh" in Romans 7, we again see that it is a "law"-- a principle, or force, agency or desire-- that is working IN our members,thus, not the body itself, that is the source of sin and sinful desires.

Its important when reading that passage (Rom.7:5-8:4) to catch the "time" elements given by the words "when" and "now". "When we were in the flesh", he then describes the condition of an unsaved Jew trying to live under the Law without the Spirit. Romans 8:1 gives us the time element "now", "There is therefore now no condemnation, that is, no slavery to sin and the flesh anymore, because the Spirit has freed us from the law of sin and death that governed us.

The portion of Romans 7 where Paul says "but I am carnal, sold under sin" is Paul dramatizing the way he felt before he knew Christ and the power of the spirit in his life. So, its about his past life, not his current life (certainly not!), and is in "flashback", historical present tense, re-living how he felt. The phrase "who shall deliver me from this body of death, is an allusion to a Roman punishment in which they would tie a dead body to a man until the rot and disease from that dead body killed the man being punished. That's how Paul felt, like his own body was his enemy, before he had been set free from the "law of sin", the flesh.

The "flesh" or sinful nature is always present with us, in our bodies and minds, until the resurrection. It's important to note that though only our spirits are born again, we have been bought with a price, body and soul. So, every member of our body is regarded as being holy to God and is a member of Christ's body, of which Jesus is the head. If our bodily members were equivalent to "the flesh", I don't think the Bible would portray our bodies as belonging to Christ's body.

When a Christian commits sin in the flesh, he still sins against God. That is why they are allowed to marry, i.e. they won't be tempted to have sex outside of marriage which would be a sin.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I will mention that the Bible doesn't say that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Tradition says that and has affected the way we understand various words and passages of the Bible incorrectly. Marriage is the ideal place for sexual relations and Sex is the physical sign of beginning a marriage. (the man cleaves to woman and they become one flesh, married.) We aren't just "allowed" to marry, we are expected to be in a sexual relationship unless God has called us to celibacy.

Are you Baptist?

No, but I am heavily influenced by Baptist reference works. I'd like to believe that the Lord has used these to give me insight into His Word.

ECBBLMSTR · Jul 16, 2012

Elijah Fischer said:
[Quoting from Romans 14] "Happy is he that does not condemn himself in the thing which he allows - and further, he who doubts is damned if he eats, because he does not eat of faith.
And then concludes with, for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I firmly believe if you do not violate the 2 great commandments, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And Love your neighbor as yourself." Both of which Jesus said cover most of the law and the prophets, and you firmly believe before God that it is okay for you to touch - then it is 'OKAY'.

On the other hand, if you cannot do it of faith, then as Paul says, 'For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

I agree that it is in a gray area... which of course, explains why it is often debated. You are correct, that as long as a person doubts that it is morally acceptable, then it is a sin to them... which, of course implies that it isn't actually a sin, and for those who believe it is normal and healthy, it is not a sin. (Some say the burden of proof is on those saying that it's a sin, but really the burden is on each of us for the sake of our own conscience, not to rule over others with our beliefs.) Paul commanded for "each man to be fully persuaded -- without doubts-- in his own mind and taught a lot about so called gray areas as eating meats sacrificed to idols and sabbath keeping. His purpose was to help each man be fully persuaded, to be strong not weak in faith. Good post.

phoenixdem · Jul 16, 2012

By using the logic that anything is acceptable as long as a person believes it is ok, what isn't alright for Christians to do?

dies-l · Jul 16, 2012

phoenixdem said:
By using the logic that anything is acceptable as long as a person believes it is ok, what isn't alright for Christians to do?

How so? If a Christian believes that it might be okay to murder his enemies, he need only look to Scripture to see that murder is evil. Likewise, if the person wants to have an affair, the answer is plainly clear if he is truly interested in God's opinion. Masturbation, on the other hand, is something for which Scripture provides no clear guidance, and you cannot exegete a clear moral prohibition from Scripture. So, it is a matter of personal conscience.

phoenixdem · Jul 16, 2012

dies-l said:
How so? If a Christian believes that it might be okay to murder his enemies, he need only look to Scripture to see that murder is evil. Likewise, if the person wants to have an affair, the answer is plainly clear if he is truly interested in God's opinion. Masturbation, on the other hand, is something for which Scripture provides no clear guidance, and you cannot exegete a clear moral prohibition from Scripture. So, it is a matter of personal conscience.

The Scriptures also tell us that if you even look at a woman with lust, you are guilty of adultery. Adultery is completed in your heart. Yeah, evil is a matter of personal conscience; however, Christians don't have that latitude if he wants to obey God. Evil is also a matter of going against the commandments of God.

ECBBLMSTR · Jul 17, 2012

phoenixdem said:
By using the logic that anything is acceptable as long as a person believes it is ok, what isn't alright for Christians to do?

I wrote: "...as long as a person doubts that it is morally acceptable, then it is a sin to them." That is the opposite of what you accused me of saying.

I studied the topic about 20 years ago and arrived at the traditional beliefs many have. About 4 years ago, I felt like I should review the evidence, and not only is there no evidence that masturbation is a sin, I found that most Christian teaching about sex, marriage and immorality to be inaccurate to say the least. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind in these things. It is especially important not to condemn others for something...:
A. we do ourselves
B. that God is silent about, though logically it would have been addressed if it was important
C. Something that is harmless and personal
D. Something that a person feels helpless over

ECBBLMSTR · Jul 17, 2012

phoenixdem said:
The Scriptures also tell us that if you even look at a woman with lust, you are guilty of adultery. Adultery is completed in your heart. Yeah, evil is a matter of personal conscience; however, Christians don't have that latitude if he wants to obey God. Evil is also a matter of going against the commandments of God.

Jesus didn't say that. That is simply a false teaching based on what He did say. His subject was "adultery" and how to be totally innocent of it. He knew there were men who prided themselves on keeping the law, that they didn't commit adultery, but they certainly thought about it; Jesus said its wrong to look at a woman to have that desire for her. At this point, it is vital to know what adultery meant to them. Adultery was when a married or betrothed woman had sex outside of her marriage. Period. It wasn't about premarital sex. It isn't when a man, married or single, has sex with an unmarried woman (That wasn't considered a sin). Adultery is only committed by causing a woman to break wedlock. Thus, the female in any discourse on adultery, must be a married woman.

In Hebrew and Greek, the word "woman" is used whether she is single or married, or its unknown. The context lets the translator know if the woman is married; for example, "his woman" or "Peter's woman" is translated "his wife" or "Peter's wife". Thus, since the topic of Matt. 5:28 is adultery, when Jesus warned against looking at a woman to have sexual desire for her, He was talking about "married women", for they are the only females who can commit adultery. His warning was that if a man looked at a married woman "in order to desire sexual relations with her", in his heart, he was "already" guilty of the act, since he was willing to commit this sin.

This verse has nothing to do with looking at women in general to desire them sexually. An obvious exception is your wife, I hope. Also, your fiancée, for why would you marry someone that you don't desire sex with, and normally you know by looking at a person if you desire to have sex with them. It should also be noted that the word "lust" in this verse simply means to desire, in this case its a desire for an illicit sexual relationship. The word is not a sexual term like our word lust today.

A person who masturbates may be thinking sexual thoughts, this is true. But, sexual thoughts aren't inherently sinful and it isn't necessary to think sexual thoughts in order to touch. Thinking about committing sexual sin is sinful. I think there is also a distinction to be made between an actual desire to do something and a mere fantasy.

(I apologize for not realizing that this is a Baptist thread until now. This is my last comment then, assuming that I'm not supposed to be here. Someone, somewhere, asked me if I was Baptist and I didn't know why. )

phoenixdem · Jul 17, 2012

ECBBLMSTR said:
Jesus didn't say that. That is simply a false teaching based on what He did say. His subject was "adultery" and how to be totally innocent of it. He knew there were men who prided themselves on keeping the law, that they didn't commit adultery, but they certainly thought about it; Jesus said its wrong to look at a woman to have that desire for her. At this point, it is vital to know what adultery meant to them. Adultery was when a married or betrothed woman had sex outside of her marriage. Period. It wasn't about premarital sex. It isn't when a man, married or single, has sex with an unmarried woman (That wasn't considered a sin). Adultery is only committed by causing a woman to break wedlock. Thus, the female in any discourse on adultery, must be a married woman.

In Hebrew and Greek, the word "woman" is used whether she is single or married, or its unknown. The context lets the translator know if the woman is married; for example, "his woman" or "Peter's woman" is translated "his wife" or "Peter's wife". Thus, since the topic of Matt. 5:28 is adultery, when Jesus warned against looking at a woman to have sexual desire for her, He was talking about "married women", for they are the only females who can commit adultery. His warning was that if a man looked at a married woman "in order to desire sexual relations with her", in his heart, he was "already" guilty of the act, since he was willing to commit this sin.

This verse has nothing to do with looking at women in general to desire them sexually. An obvious exception is your wife, I hope. Also, your fiancée, for why would you marry someone that you don't desire sex with, and normally you know by looking at a person if you desire to have sex with them. It should also be noted that the word "lust" in this verse simply means to desire, in this case its a desire for an illicit sexual relationship. The word is not a sexual term like our word lust today.

A person who masturbates may be thinking sexual thoughts, this is true. But, sexual thoughts aren't inherently sinful and it isn't necessary to think sexual thoughts in order to touch. Thinking about committing sexual sin is sinful. I think there is also a distinction to be made between an actual desire to do something and a mere fantasy.

(I apologize for not realizing that this is a Baptist thread until now. This is my last comment then, assuming that I'm not supposed to be here. Someone, somewhere, asked me if I was Baptist and I didn't know why. )

You can make all of the exceptions in your own mind that you wish to. That doesn't make it right. And, yeah, this is a Baptist thread.

Humble Pie · Jul 17, 2012

It's not sex and no matter how much someone else condemns them for "sexual sin", it's still not sex.

phoenixdem · Jul 17, 2012

Humble Pie said:
It's not sex and no matter how much someone else condemns them for "sexual sin", it's still not sex.

Well, Humble, we should care what God tells us. Isn't that what Christianity is all about?

Matthew:

5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
commit adultery:

5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust

after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

dies-l · Jul 17, 2012

phoenixdem said:
The Scriptures also tell us that if you even look at a woman with lust, you are guilty of adultery. Adultery is completed in your heart. Yeah, evil is a matter of personal conscience; however, Christians don't have that latitude if he wants to obey God. Evil is also a matter of going against the commandments of God.

But this is not a thread about lusting after women; it is a thread about masturbation, which may or may not be accompanied by an immoral lust.

phoenixdem · Jul 17, 2012

dies-l said:
But this is not a thread about lusting after women; it is a thread about masturbation, which may or may not be accompanied by an immoral lust.

Is it a thread about lusting after men? Because something is being lusted after.

Elijah Fischer · Jul 17, 2012

ECBBLMSTR,

I believe you hit the bulls-eye with your interpretation of what Jesus meant by what he said about lusting after women. I have had other people tell me similar things but have never heard as good of an explanation as what presented.

I also firmly believe everything is originated by thoughts and that we are able to control ourselves based upon, The Word of God as being a critic of the thoughts and intents of our hearts, as is clearly stated in Hebrews 4:12.

Therefore it would seem to be highly important to rightly divide the Word of Truth which is what I think you did in that magnificent post.

And getting back to our earlier discussion of whatsoever is not of faith is sin, one would think that if someone cannot accept a certain interpretation such as this one, then it would be a sin to them to act accordingly and a sin for us if we were to behave differently than we believe.

I have to say that I firmly believe this should not at all develop into an argument--far from it. To act in one accord; shouldn't that mean that we love each other by accepting our petty differences. In comparison, we would be immature to develop friction between ourselves and someone whom we don't agree with as to how they wear their hair or clothes--talk or act.

Speaking of one accord, I didn't realize this was a Baptist forum either. I have been to just about every church that worships Jesus and spent a fair amount of time in the Baptist church.

I remember a time when I went from an upstanding position to being broke, psychotic and on the brink of losing my mind. This was after I'd lost practically every physical possession I had including my job.

I was taken in by these fantastic Baptist ministers. A Reverend Martin was the head of this Mission I was brought to in Shreveport, Louisiana. I had previously accepted Jesus as my personal savior years before, but because of the unworthy state I was in, a dilemma developed in my mind as to whether or not I was really saved. And of course, every time I turned around, someone was asking, "Brother, are you saved?"

I stayed at The Baptist Mission for about a month, during which time I received the exact help I needed to begin regaining my sanity. After that I went through a drug rehab and little by little God restored me to sanity--and gave me more than I had before so far as the other important things in life.

A while later, I stopped by again to visit with Reverend Martin and the other gentlemen who had helped me so much. "You are like a different person", they said, "We almost don't recognize you."

I may not agree with every little bit of Baptist doctrine, but I certainly share in the core beliefs. I love the Baptist church and it's members.

I know this was kind of long, but I just felt like I had to share it with you.

Is masterbating considered a sin?

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