Is Mary the New Eve? (Either symbolically or in some actuality)

[Breckmin]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss how Mary is symbolic to being
the new Eve.

I am interested in persuasive arguments - other than just the typical
"she is the Mother of all of us."

I believe the Church is the mother of the believer and not Mary, but
I am interested in LOGICAL reasons why Mary would be symbolic to
Eve.

From what I was taught - it is the Church which is symbolic of the New
Eve - just as the Church (with gentiles) is symbolic of Nineveh. {repented
after Jonah came to them which was meant to be symbolic of the
Resurrection).

I believe it is a historical position - but I haven't researched - that
the Church is symbolic of the new Eve because the Church is tempted
by satan and NOT deceived and the Church was specifically made for
Christ just as Eve was made for Adam.

 

[Breckmin]

I still say that Mary is the greatest woman who ever lived...even if I change my
position on whether or not she is the new Eve.

 

[winsome]

Mary is the new Eve.

Let me start this by looking at the logic.

St. Paul describes Jesus as the new Adam in 1 Cor 15, reversing or undoing what Adam did

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life (verse 21-22)

So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.” (verses 48)

But there were two people involved in the fall – Adam and Eve. So logically there should be a new Eve reversing or undoing what the original Eve did by her obedience to God. That person is Mary.

The early Fathers believed this. The earliest writing we have on this was Justin Martyr who said “Christ became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience that proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord……And by her has He been born, to Whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by Whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him.” (Letter to Trypho 160AD).

Justin Martyr makes the point that Eve conceived the word of the serpent while Mary conceived the Word of God.

St. Iranaeus (140 – 202) says that just as Adam was the head of the old human race, so Jesus is the head of the new humanity. And, just as Adam had a collaborator in the person of Eve, so Jesus has a collaborator in the person of Mary. Mary is the Eve in God’s new creation. Writing in Against Heresies he says
In accordance with this design Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word”. But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when she was yet a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being as yet a virgin……having become disobedient was made the cause of death, both for herself and the whole human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed (to her), and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, became the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.



For the main scripture on this we need to turn to St. John’s gospel. His gospel is very deep and mystical. John is supposed to have written this near the end of his very old age and so had many years to reflect and meditate on what he had seen and heard. He does not give lists of miracles but seven of what he calls “signs”. It is to the first of these – the miracle at Cana that we must examine carefully as with John’s gospel we need to look below the surface.

There is an interchange between Mary and Jesus
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” (Jn 2:3-4)

Protestant commentators see Jesus addressing Mary as “Woman” as a rebuke. But this is not. Jesus would never be so rude to his mother as to rebuke her, particularly in public. It would be breaking the 4th commandment. And Mary does not act as rebuked. He means something special by the term “Woman”. In fact one commentator says there is not one occasion in ancient literature of a son addressing his mother as Woman

And again he addresses her as “Woman” at the cross.
When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” (Jn 19:26). Is Jesus rebuking her there? No. Again, addressing her as “Woman” is significant. But I will come to that later.

It is how Eve is described in the Garden of Eden. She is always called “Woman” until after the fall. In this Jesus is indicating that Mary is the new Eve.

You may think this is just co-incidence but the beginning of John’s gospel has several parallel with the beginning of Genesis.

Firstly it begins with the same phrase “In the beginning….” John seems to be deliberately drawing out attention back to the book of Genesis. Next in Genesis 1:3-5 God created light to shine in darkness. In John 1:4-5 we are told this life was the light of the human race;
the light shines in the darkness.

Then he counts off seven days, just as at the beginning of Genesis:
The next day (Jn 1:29)
The next day (Jn 1:35)
The next day (Jn 1:43) – so now we are on the fourth day
On the third day there was a wedding in Cana (Jn 2:1) so the wedding feast was on the seventh day. John then stops counting days.

The seventh day in Genesis is the perfect day, the Sabbath, the sign of the Covenant (See Ex31:16-17). Therefore this wedding feast is going to be very significant. And indeed it is. I won’t go into it all now. In the OT the wedding feast is the sign of God’s redemption his people. John is indicating that the new covenant that will be enacted at the Last Supper is being inaugurated.

The wedding feast is the first sign. Calvary is the seventh great sign, when Jesus is crucified and blood and water pour from his side. This is Jesus hour, the one that at Cana he said had not yet come. Again Mary is present and again Jesus addresses her as “Woman”.
When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (Jn 19:26-27)

This is not Jesus making domestic arrangements from the cross. Here Jesus is giving Mary as mother of all believers since “beloved disciple” represents all Jesus disciples (we are all beloved disciples). And we are to take Mary into our home- that is into our hearts.

Let us move forward to the book of Revelation and chapter 12 when we again come across a Woman:
A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.(Rev 12:1)

This woman is Mary. We know this is Jesus because verse 5 tells us the child she bears is “a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod” referencing psalm 2:9.

Now this woman, Mary, is the mother of those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus (verse 17).

So at the cross and in Revelation Mary is referred to as the mother of all believers, just as Eve was referred to as “the mother of all the living” (Gen 3:20)

 

[Rhamiel]

it is symbolic, through willfulness the first Eve lead the world to sin and death, through humility the New Eve gives the world Christ who is life everlasting

also in the sense that we are new creations in Christ, we are "born agian" with Christ as our brother, well if we claim that Christ is our brother and that God is our Father, who is the mother of Chirst?Well it is Mary, so she is now our Mother as well, on the Cross our Lord gave His mother to "man" saying to the apostle who he loved "man look upon your mother" the apostle was standing in for all those who love christ and whom Christ loves

 

[Breckmin]

the problem I have with this is that the inverse (opposite) of deception is NOT humility it is rather not being deceived and knowing the TRUTH. This was the church's role in fulfilling through "faith."

The fact that the position is based around Mary being our mother is quickly talking me out of the induction.

 

[Breckmin]

This is not Jesus making domestic arrangements from the cross. Here Jesus is giving Mary as mother of all believers since “beloved disciple” represents all Jesus disciples (we are all beloved disciples). And we are to take Mary into our home- that is into our hearts.

Now we are beginning to see where the deception is coming from.

It was John who was supposed to take care of her.

 

[winsome]

Now we are beginning to see where the deception is coming from.

It was John who was supposed to take care of her.

Perhaps I should have said
This is not Jesus simply making domestic arrangements from the cross...

As I said John's gospel is deep and mystical. It is written on more than one level. You have to look beneath the surface events and words to understand what John is trying to tell us. Yes, John took care of Mary in the physical sense, but John is indicating much more than just a simple arrangement for Mary's physical care. She is giving her to us all as a mother. She is the mother of all those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Rev 12:17)

No comment on the rest of what I said, or is this your only comment?

 

[Breckmin]

But there were two people involved in the fall – Adam and Eve. So logically there should be a new Eve reversing or undoing what the original Eve did by her obedience to God. That person is Mary.

The Church as the Bride of Christ makes this much more reasonable.
Mary being the new Eve doesn't really "reverse" anything.

It is the TRUE Church of all born-again believers who is not deceived
by satan. Mary is "part" of the church.

 

[Breckmin]

There is an interchange between Mary and Jesus
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” (Jn 2:3-4)

Protestant commentators see Jesus addressing Mary as “Woman” as a rebuke. But this is not. Jesus would never be so rude to his mother as to rebuke her, particularly in public. It would be breaking the 4th commandment. And Mary does not act as rebuked. He means something special by the term “Woman”. In fact one commentator says there is not one occasion in ancient literature of a son addressing his mother as Woman

And again he addresses her as “Woman” at the cross.
When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” (Jn 19:26). Is Jesus rebuking her there? No. Again, addressing her as “Woman” is significant. But I will come to that later.

It is how Eve is described in the Garden of Eden. She is always called “Woman” until after the fall. In this Jesus is indicating that Mary is the new Eve.

You may think this is just co-incidence but the beginning of John’s gospel has several parallel with the beginning of Genesis.

Your induction of the use of the English word "woman" fails on a basic
understanding of the use of two different languages (Hebrew and koine
Greek) and therefore two different words that were translated as woman
in the English.

More extrapolation and induction off of a single English word only continues
to weaken the argument.

 

[Breckmin]

MY CURRENT POSITION:

I still do not know whether Mary is a type of new Eve or not. I am still looking
for a strong argument. I haven't seen it yet so I am wondering how this tradition
became so well accepted.

 

[boswd]

Perhaps I should have said
This is not Jesus simply making domestic arrangements from the cross...

As I said John's gospel is deep and mystical. It is written on more than one level. You have to look beneath the surface events and words to understand what John is trying to tell us. Yes, John took care of Mary in the physical sense, but John is indicating much more than just a simple arrangement for Mary's physical care. She is giving her to us all as a mother. She is the mother of all those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Rev 12:17)

No comment on the rest of what I said, or is this your only comment?

I agree, there is something to learn from everything in scripture, certain passages weren't written just to fill up the pages, we are to take something form everything.

I agree 100% that when Christ spoke to John about Mary being his Mother he was speaking to us for generatins to come.

Think about it in regards to the Holy Communion, if we just take thing only at face value then Jesus was only speaking to the disciples and not us. But it is common thought throughout Christianity that what Jesus was saying to the disciples he was saying also to us for generations to come.

same logic apply's.

 

[Secundulus]

Mary is the new Eve because she is the Mother of the Church as recorded in the Book of Revelation, ch. 12.

NASB95, Revelation 12:1-2

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.​

The same woman is then described as follows.​

NASB95, Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Some will want to say that the woman is Israel. However, that makes no sense in the context of the rest of Chapter 12. Verse 4 describes the slaughter of the innocents and verse 6 describes the flight into Egypt. Verse 17 describes the persecution of the Church that continues today.

 

[MrPolo]

MY CURRENT POSITION:

I still do not know whether Mary is a type of new Eve or not. I am still looking
for a strong argument. I haven't seen it yet so I am wondering how this tradition became so well accepted.

I think it's fairly clear.

One last point to consider: Pondering our entire exposition of this topic, we can step back and see how our Blessed Mother — her role and her imagery in this passage of Revelation — fulfills the Old Testament. For this reason, the early Church fathers identified Mary as "the New Eve." In the third chapter of Genesis, the first Eve succumbed to the temptation of wanting to be like a god, disobeyed God’s command and sinned. In contrast, Mary is full of grace, free of all sin. At the Annunciation, she said to Archangel Gabriel, "I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done according to thy word," submitting fully to the will of God (Lk 2:38).

Through the first Eve came death and the closing of the gates of heaven; through Mary came everlasting life won by the saving work of Jesus. While the first Eve is called "the mother of all of the living," Mary is truly the Mother of all of those living spiritually in the life of grace. (Link)​

Also...some of the ECFs on this (Cardinal Newman lists some under "Second Eve" heading) (And some more).

The typology explained by these many ECFs essentially recognizes both of them as mothers of their respective ages, and Eve is the disobedient mother, and Mary the obedient one. What is important to know about Eve, is that she was created without sin! Just as Adam was. They were without original sin and purity if not for the Fall. But Mary is the superior ante-type of Eve, and thus created without sin in an even greater way. And when she is faced with her choice of yes or no to God, Mary, unlike Eve, says yes.

Finally...

Mary in the New Testament is also a fulfillment of certain types namely Eve and the Ark of the Covenant. In Genesis Eve is described as a "Women" who disobeyed God. Genesis describes one woman (Eve) and one man (Adam) who are created initially immaculate. The woman and man are approached by one angel (who is fallen, the Devil) and they choose freely to disobey God and eat one food from one tree that would cause death for a whole race. In Luke's gospel the same is seen but only in reversed and redemptive way. In Luke one woman (Mary) is visited by one angel (who is holy, Gabriel) and this one woman freely chooses to obey and accept God's plan for her, unlike Eve. This one women would give birth to one man Jesus Christ who would die for all on a tree and give the world one food to eat that would give life to the whole human race (Holy Communion Jn 6:54-58). (Link)

 

[James4_14]

Mary is the new Eve because she is the Mother of the Church as recorded in the Book of Revelation, ch. 12.

NASB95, Revelation 12:1-2

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.​

The same woman is then described as follows.​

NASB95, Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Some will want to say that the woman is Israel. However, that makes no sense in the context of the rest of Chapter 12. Verse 4 describes the slaughter of the innocents and verse 6 describes the flight into Egypt. Verse 17 describes the persecution of the Church that continues today.

The "woman" is Israel No more...no less. Remember Joseph's dream?

 

[James4_14]

Revelation 12 is the final conflict between satan and Israel.
The prominence of Israel is shown here in this chapter. This fact was proved in the last chapter with the measuring of the temple on Earth and the opening of the temple in Heaven and the last verse of chapter 11 is the opening to chapter 12.
The woman, the red dragon, the child of the woman, Michael (the archangel), the dragon persecutes the woman and the remnant of Israel are the subjects of this chapter. Then in the next chapter are the two beasts.
These seven are persons both natural and supernatural.
Physical and spiritual and rulers and nations. You cannot separate a leader from the nation. If these seven are not clear then one is lost in this presentation.

***Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
This verse leads into chapter 12 to show the nation Israel is the subject matter. Temples are NOT associated with the church in ANY way except for the temple of the body of believers (collectively speaking).

***Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
The woman is the nation Israel as seen in Joseph’s dream. This was a sign in Heaven but her carrer is on Earth!!. This is NOT a literal woman. THIS “WOMAN” IS WHAT THE ENTIRE BOOK OF REVELATION REVOLVES AROUND. AGAIN…. IT IS THE FINAL CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SATAN.

Again….Rev 12:1 is associated with Joseph’s dream:
***Gen 37:9-10
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
***Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
“Unto us a child is born”. “Us”=Israel.
And the “ child” spoke of Christ NOT as saviour, but as the KING and head of government. This verse (Isaiah 9:6) has NOTHING to do with the church, but Israel. The church was NOT in the Old Testament.
***Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
***Rom 9:4-5
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

In the previous passage… “Who are Israelites”….. “Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came”. The Israelites just happen to be “concerning the flesh Christ came”…OUT OF Israel.
***John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
****Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Christ was born in Bethlehem but came out of eternity.

***Mic 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. KJV
***Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Travailing is associated with Israel:
***Mic 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
***Isa 66:7-8
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
[There has to be born a Son first (Christ as King)]
This is the Great Tribulation period and the “children” are the remnant of Israel.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

MY CURRENT POSITION:

I still do not know whether Mary is a type of new Eve or not. I am still looking
for a strong argument. I haven't seen it yet so I am wondering how this tradition
became so well accepted.

So we are speaking on same terms, by "type" you mean symbolic or pre-figured, correct???

 

[James4_14]

It would be an assumption just like the "assumption".

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It would be an assumption just like the "assumption".

Do you also assume it is an assumption to say there was anything special about Saint John the Baptist or the prophet Jeremiah before they were born?