Is love unconditional or is it extortion?

[Blissman]

Suppose that you were not a Christian, but was examing Chistianity and other faiths. Suppose that you wanted to pick a faith. If, as in Christianity evil, such as as Saddam Hussain's can be, by acceptance of Jesus, be forgiven, and Saddam could go to Heaven, but a good man (who has yet to accept Jesus as Lord) can go to Hell, for what reason would you want to join a religion that could reward evil and condemn good? Since you must accept Jesus as Lord to be saved, why would you consider accepting anything else about Christianity including, of course, accepting Jesus as Lord, when other faiths do not require this. Might it seem like extortion? Accept and be rewarded, don't and go to Hell?
Isn't Unconditional Love really conditional or is it more like the Mofia? Remember, you are trying to argue this to a non-Christian, so scripture can not be cited, because the person has not accepted scripture.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Some things cannot be understood without the Spirit.

The Unconditional Love of our Heavenly Father, I believe, is one of them.

One has to have the faith to accept all things will be dealt with both justly and mercifully. It takes a spiritual understanding of the atonement of Christ to understand how that is possible.

I believe everyone who has ever lived will have equal opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[openeyes]

Ahh... Scripture can be cited, as an example of the unfathomable love God has for us.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Yes accepting Jesus as our saviour is VERY important, but the above shows that doers of the law, even accedentally will be judged favorably. The acceptance of the Saviour gives an edge, in that believers have a mediator for us, that understands the power of temptation, and how easy it is to fall victim to it.
Judgement is not an automatic ticket anywhere, it's jugement, the sentence is the final word.
There are other examples, but I'm just not feeling like digging right now.
God bless

 

[Natro]

Ahh... Scripture can be cited, as an example of the unfathomable love God has for us.

You do relize thats quoting the scritures isn't realy a argument. Hitler could say he loves you and a follower of his could hold up a peice of paper that says hitler loves you. Does that realy mean Hitler loves you? Nope sure doesn't

 

[Philosoft]

I believe everyone who has ever lived will have equal opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why would you make such an absurd claim? The majority of the world's population is non-Christian. Do you really assume that 3+ billion have all been exposed to Scripture?

 

[Blissman]

Ahh... Scripture can be cited, as an example of the unfathomable love God has for us.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Yes accepting Jesus as our saviour is VERY important, but the above shows that doers of the law, even accedentally will be judged favorably. The acceptance of the Saviour gives an edge, in that believers have a mediator for us, that understands the power of temptation, and how easy it is to fall victim to it.
Judgement is not an automatic ticket anywhere, it's jugement, the sentence is the final word.
There are other examples, but I'm just not feeling like digging right now.
God bless

Scriptures may be quoted, but may not be used as proof in this debate. The reason is because while we, Christians, accept Jesus as Lord (and His salvation, Grace, and Love). Christian Scriptures include that you must faithfully accept Jesus as Lord. You are attempting to convince someone who has yet to believe any aspect of Christianity, including Scripture.
You can not use as proof that you can be saved if, and only if, you truely accept that you must accept that you must accept Jesus so that you can will be in heaven to someone who has yet to believe that you must accept that the only way to enter heaven is to accept Jesus. This person whom you are attempting to save is looking for a faith, but has yet to find one. Other faiths do not require that you must believe so that you can be saved from eternal damnation. No matter how kind, no matter what you may do in life that is moral and just and good - you will forever be condemned to hell in Christianity, but not in any other faith. In other faiths it is what you do in life that determines what will happen after corporal death. To someone who has yet to accept Christ, it may seem as extortion. Come with me and be rewarded. Do not come with me and I will make your forever, literally, hell.
You face this problem. Win that person's soul. You can not attack the person or they will leave.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Why would you make such an absurd claim? The majority of the world's population is non-Christian. Do you really assume that 3+ billion have all been exposed to Scripture?

No, not yet. Yes, they will.

 

[openeyes]

Natro and Blissman,
You'll notice I said as an example to the unfathomable love God has. I didn't mean it to be proof,only to show that these messages are built in.
Choosing Christianity would be the way to go, in that certain attonements are already made for the passing over.
As far as someone who doesn't believe in passing over, the debate would become, what do you have to loose? If Christians are wrong then following the law should be enough to get you through any other of the religions that has no punishments. The Christian Bible is a guide on how to live a happy and moral life, the messages contained therein are valid. If you have a hard time swallowing it all as historical fact, look for the message. Our Christ is more than a teacher, a saviour, he is an example of the balance between manhood (or natural insticts) and spirituality.
Hope this clears up my thoughts.
God bless

 

[arizona_sunshine]

As far as someone who doesn't believe in passing over, the debate would become, what do you have to loose? If Christians are wrong then following the law should be enough to get you through any other of the religions that has no punishments. The Christian Bible is a guide on how to live a happy and moral life, the messages contained therein are valid. If you have a hard time swallowing it all as historical fact, look for the message. Our Christ is more than a teacher, a saviour, he is an example of the balance between manhood (or natural insticts) and spirituality.

I completely agree that the Gospel as presented by Christ is beneficial to all mankind, that His message is good.

John 3: 17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

However, I would shy away from the "what have you got to lose" argument. Our thoughts and motivations are no mystery to the Almighty. The Spirit is the power by which true conversion is verified.

Epistle of Paul to the Romans, Chapter 15

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


We have no power of persuation more motivating than that of God's own witnessing Spirit. And what a blessing it is to have that constant confirmation!

 

[ananar23]

Love in Gods term is perfect and equal. It's just when we humans get ahold of our lown lives we become idiots in emotion. No matter how high the intelligent quotient the spectrum of emotions we are capable of experiencing is in some way faulty. Therefore, we are capable of being nice guys, but for what reason. To answer the question from my own faulty mind i would say love is agape in God, but exploited in man hands. I still want to know how people perceive love; love baffles me, so dont listen to me i dont know what i am talking about. im just bored.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Love in Gods term is perfect and equal. It's just when we humans get ahold of our lown lives we become idiots in emotion. No matter how high the intelligent quotient the spectrum of emotions we are capable of experiencing is in some way faulty. Therefore, we are capable of being nice guys, but for what reason. To answer the question from my own faulty mind i would say love is agape in God, but exploited in man hands.

I think your comment is a wonderful contribution:

When did I last see love exploited by man? Hmm... gotta think hard--- the last billboard perhaps? the last pop-up? the last television commercial... Gotta love those diamond advertisments...

I believe that the honest love that exists between man and woman, between families, or between friends is a great gift from God. It allows us just a small window to understanding His regard for each one of us.

I appreciate that you described His love as perfect and equal. As I have said before, a true understanding of this balance is only made possible thru the atonement of Christ.

 

[Blissman]

Natro and Blissman,
You'll notice I said as an example to the unfathomable love God has. I didn't mean it to be proof,only to show that these messages are built in.
Choosing Christianity would be the way to go, in that certain attonements are already made for the passing over.
As far as someone who doesn't believe in passing over, the debate would become, what do you have to loose? If Christians are wrong then following the law should be enough to get you through any other of the religions that has no punishments. The Christian Bible is a guide on how to live a happy and moral life, the messages contained therein are valid. If you have a hard time swallowing it all as historical fact, look for the message. Our Christ is more than a teacher, a saviour, he is an example of the balance between manhood (or natural insticts) and spirituality.
Hope this clears up my thoughts.
God bless

"...what do you have to loose?" is a way to loose the debate, not win it. People should not take on a faith based on a gamble that perhaps they may not go to Hell. Acceptance of Christianity (or of any faith - remember the person that you are attempting convince is 'shopping' the many faiths). What does Christ have to offer that is positive? Anticipate that people may challange you with questions such as 'Why can a moral man go to Hell, but an Evil man go to Heaven'? Shouldn't good triumph over evil? Why would someone want a faith were it is possible for evil men to be rewarded, and good be punished? Anyone looking for a faith, be it Christianity or any other faith, will examine good v evil. People will ask, if evil can be forgiven, why are there laws that ask men to live good lives, and not evil ones? Unless you know the answer to that question, it would seem to be a faith where evil can be rewarded, and good da*ned. This would make Christanity an evil faith. There is, of course an answer, but to a non-believer this is a paradox.

 

[Natro]

Natro and Blissman,
You'll notice I said as an example to the unfathomable love God has. I didn't mean it to be proof,only to show that these messages are built in.
Choosing Christianity would be the way to go, in that certain attonements are already made for the passing over.
As far as someone who doesn't believe in passing over, the debate would become, what do you have to loose? If Christians are wrong then following the law should be enough to get you through any other of the religions that has no punishments. The Christian Bible is a guide on how to live a happy and moral life, the messages contained therein are valid. If you have a hard time swallowing it all as historical fact, look for the message. Our Christ is more than a teacher, a saviour, he is an example of the balance between manhood (or natural insticts) and spirituality.
Hope this clears up my thoughts.
God bless

Heheh the razor cuts both ways my friend. What have I got to lose? Well as a athiest I have a 50/50 chance to be right or to be wrong, but as a christian you have a 99% chance to be wrong and a 1% chance that your religion will be true. Out of All the religions out there what chance do you have that Christianity is right? Not that much my friend not that much. =)

 

[Philosoft]

No, not yet. Yes, they will.

Were all 25,000 or so killed in the recent Iran earthquake made cognizant of Scripture at some point prior to their being buried by tons of rubble?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Were all 25,000 or so killed in the recent Iran earthquake made cognizant of Scripture at some point prior to their being buried by tons of rubble?

I subscibe to a faith that believes in post-mortal missionary efforts.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Suppose that you were not a Christian, but was examing Chistianity and other faiths. Suppose that you wanted to pick a faith. If, as in Christianity evil, such as as Saddam Hussain's can be, by acceptance of Jesus, be forgiven, and Saddam could go to Heaven, but a good man (who has yet to accept Jesus as Lord) can go to Hell, for what reason would you want to join a religion that could reward evil and condemn good? Since you must accept Jesus as Lord to be saved, why would you consider accepting anything else about Christianity including, of course, accepting Jesus as Lord, when other faiths do not require this. Might it seem like extortion? Accept and be rewarded, don't and go to Hell?
Isn't Unconditional Love really conditional or is it more like the Mofia? Remember, you are trying to argue this to a non-Christian, so scripture can not be cited, because the person has not accepted scripture.

I would cite scripture anyway, because God's word never returns void. It always achieves the purpose for which God ordained it. So I would go about it through doing what God wanted me to do, and then trust Him to do His will with it.

That aside, I'd say that God does not reward evil. People are still accountable for their actions at the judgment, Christian or not. Forgiving and rewarding for are not the same thing.

 

[openeyes]

Blissman & Natro,

O.K. I see your point on using the "what do you have to lose" argument. At this point I'd be at a loss, the best I could hope for would be for the Spirit to move through me as I spoke and give me the right words to say. I'm obviously no internet Christian recruiter.
I don't see there being a 50/50 chance of being wrong as an atheist, though. I think the odds would be the same, considering the number of world religions. 50/50 would only play into the equation if you consider some sort of "afterlife" or nothing, and those regards I have a 50% chance also.
I think all of mankind are on a level playing field, and that Christianity does offer a wider margin of error, this may also sound like a paradox, but look at the bounderies. Jesus made the ultmate attonement for our sins, where in other religions (to my knowlege, although I have not studied them all) the attonements need to be made before passing. If there is nothing then so be it, I've left an impression on everone I've come into contact with, and my memory will be around for quite a while.
God bless

 

[Received]

Everyone has a ?/? chance of being right; until omniscience is attained by humanity, there is no possible way to know the odds of such extremeties as God's existence.

 

[truthquest]

I believe that the only people that won't be saved are the people that completely reject God and don't want to have anything to do with him. I believe this can be proven biblically. There is only one unforgivable sin. That is to Blaspheme the Holy Spirit. At some point in your life you will be visited in your heart by the Holy Spirit with the truth. Many have been visited already and many have not yet. It may be on your death bed or your dying breath. But you will have a firm and decisive choice to either be with God or reject him. He's not going to force you into eternal life. Would it be right for him to force you into eternal life if you said, "No God, I'd rather die than be with you." How tragic that would be if one thought that. But wouldn't that be God honoring your wish?

Yes, Biblically Hitler can be saved. But once we pass on from this world I believe our eyes are truly open. I believe we will all, through empathy, see all the joys we brought people and all the pain we caused. Imagine Hitler having to see and inwardly feel the pain that he brought to all those people and generations to follow. He may very well prefer eternal death over having to have his eyes truly opened.

So there is no extortion. Only choice, accepting forgiveness and accepting him. God is more fair and loving than any of us could possibly imagine.

 

[FervidPrincess]

Blissman & Natro,
If there is nothing then so be it, I've left an impression on everone I've come into contact with, and my memory will be around for quite a while.
God bless

I know you dont believe that. If you have made an impression on someone and there is nothing else after we are gone..why are you worried about making an impression...why would it matter, at that point there would be no rememberance of your impression. I believe 100% that there is " something after" ...I have faith...the belief in the unseen. I have not seen God face to face, but I see him in his works...I feel him through love, I have seen visions of wonderful things. I didnt look for it...God gave it to me as a gift.

P.S. openeyes, you dont have to explain yourself with such sterility.

Love,
FervidPrincess