Is Judas in Hell? Are we certain of this?

Servus Iesu · Nov 17, 2005

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (St. John 6:70)

And they prayed and said, "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place." (Acts 1:24-25)

Letalis · Nov 17, 2005

stray bullet said:
He wouldn't have committed suicide if he didn't regret his betrayl. He was clearly torn up about what he had done.

Feeling guilty is of no avail. Guilt is a natural reaction to evil that one does. If Judas felt guilty, then begged God for forgiveness and Mercy, then he might have gone to Heaven. But he didn't. He felt guilty, then killed himself.

nyj · Nov 17, 2005

The question that was asked was: are we certain. To which we must answer: No, we're not certain. Since the Catholic Church has never officially declared any previously living person to be a resident of Hell, as much as we can offer evidence to support an opinion, it's merely an opinion and not a fact.

WarriorAngel · Nov 17, 2005

The Church assumes it by her scripture.

training4utopia · Nov 17, 2005

Servus Iesu said:
Judas didn't repent. He despaired and committed suicide. That is sin against the Holy Spirit. St. Peter committed a great sin too but he repented.

Judas could have betrayed Jesus and later been saved but he wasn't because he hanged himself and rejected God's grace. Judas was a thief and a devil.

Good point, in fact Jesus' own words mentioned he was a devil. But can you explain to me how suicide is sin against the Holy Spirit?

Servus Iesu · Nov 17, 2005

training4utopia said:
Good point, in fact Jesus' own words mentioned he was a devil. But can you explain to me how suicide is sin against the Holy Spirit?

Despair is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Despair rejects the possibility of conversion or repentance or the reception of God's grace. By killing himself, Judas closed the window through which he could have experienced the saving grace and forgiveness of the risen Jesus Christ. In effect he said "I am evil and I am giving up on God and life."

Bushido216 · Nov 17, 2005

ps139 said:
I see what you are getting at. Which is that if:

A. someone had to betray Christ
B. that someone went to hell
C. God creates a person knowing there is no chance he can be saved.... so why did He create that person?

I do not know the answer.

That's precisely what I'm getting at. Even if we consider that after Judas' betrayal he had the chance to reprent, it seems unlikely since Christ had pretty much condemned him prior to his betrayal. Prior to Peter's sin (which I believe we're referring to denying Christ) Christ told him that Peter was the rock upon which His Church would be built.

I should think that it is evident that Judas never had a chance.

Servus Iesu · Nov 17, 2005

Bushido216 said:
That's precisely what I'm getting at. Even if we consider that after Judas' betrayal he had the chance to reprent, it seems unlikely since Christ had pretty much condemned him prior to his betrayal. Prior to Peter's sin (which I believe we're referring to denying Christ) Christ told him that Peter was the rock upon which His Church would be built.

I should think that it is evident that Judas never had a chance.

You would make God into a diabolical puppeteer. Jesus knew Peter was a good man who would repent of his sin and he knew that Judas was a devil who would return to his father.

training4utopia · Nov 17, 2005

Servus, I surely believe despair is a sin. For the same reasons as you. But I need scriptures to back up what you're saying. Surely you didn't come to this kind of conclusion through mere logic. Any sin could be against the Holy Spirit ESPECIALLY if you're a Christian. Despair isn't even noticing the Holy Spirit. But willful disobedience is ignoring the Holy Spirit, which sounds even more grave.

Tonks · Nov 17, 2005

There is an EWTN Q&A from a week or so ago that addresses this very point:
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SOUL OF JUDAS?
Question from LORI WALTER on 11/2/2005:

Reading through the gospels and reflecting on the passion of Christ, I wonder about the soul of Judas. Jesus' death to save all sinners was the reason that He became incarnate in the first place. Jesus knew the circumstances of His death in advance. Judas played a role in fulfilling that prophesy. But, it was talked about that whoever the person was that would hand over Jesus should wish that he never been born. I look at Peter and he denied Jesus not once but three times. Yet, he remained in favor with Christ. The gospels talk about Judas feeling so much remorse for what he did that he took his own life. Yet there is no talk of forgiveness for Judas. Also, I believe there was talk the the devil possessed Judas at that time, so was this a possession or Judas' actual character here? Without Judas involvement, Jesus would not be the Redeemer or Savior. He had to die on the cross for that to happen. God knows the plan for each; Judas' was to fulfill the prophesy. Should he be eternally punished for that. What I believe is that our God would not create a person whose life has been predestined to be in hell. What do you think??????

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 11/4/2005:

Judas is almost certainly in hell. God did not predestine Judas to betray Christ, but God knew for all eternity that Judas would willingly do this and allowed him to fit into the plan of providence which allowed the Crucifixion of Christ. The role Judas played was for the good of others but not for himself. Given the special role and graces given him, his failure to turn back to Christ as St. Peter did, his wickedness such that he stole money collected for the poor, and his last act of self destruction, there is little room for doubt. Add to this the words of our Lord that better had he not been born, and the case is closed. As to possession, Judas had already made himself a ready vessel for Satan, by his loss of grace and wickedness.

Thanks, Lori

Father Echert

COPYRIGHT 2005

Servus Iesu · Nov 17, 2005

training4utopia said:
Servus, I surely believe despair is a sin. For the same reasons as you. But I need scriptures to back up what you're saying. Surely you didn't come to this kind of conclusion through mere logic. Any sin could be against the Holy Spirit ESPECIALLY if you're a Christian. Despair isn't even noticing the Holy Spirit. But willful disobedience is ignoring the Holy Spirit, which sounds even more grave.

Well, Jesus refers to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as unforgiveable, correct? Yet we agree that as long as one is alive and whenever one trully turns to God and repents they can be forgiven. Do you agree?

I say that despair is a sin against the Holy Spirit because despair which manifests itself in suicide allows no room for repentance. We can only repent while we are alive. Once we are dead we have run out of chances. Thus, after Judas betrays our Lord he despairs and dies in the act of committing a sin against his body, which is also a temple of the Holy Spirit. It is a sin against the theological virtue of hope.

Servus Iesu · Nov 17, 2005

Tonks said:
There is an EWTN Q&A from a week or so ago that addresses this very point:
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SOUL OF JUDAS?
Question from LORI WALTER on 11/2/2005:

Reading through the gospels and reflecting on the passion of Christ, I wonder about the soul of Judas. Jesus' death to save all sinners was the reason that He became incarnate in the first place. Jesus knew the circumstances of His death in advance. Judas played a role in fulfilling that prophesy. But, it was talked about that whoever the person was that would hand over Jesus should wish that he never been born. I look at Peter and he denied Jesus not once but three times. Yet, he remained in favor with Christ. The gospels talk about Judas feeling so much remorse for what he did that he took his own life. Yet there is no talk of forgiveness for Judas. Also, I believe there was talk the the devil possessed Judas at that time, so was this a possession or Judas' actual character here? Without Judas involvement, Jesus would not be the Redeemer or Savior. He had to die on the cross for that to happen. God knows the plan for each; Judas' was to fulfill the prophesy. Should he be eternally punished for that. What I believe is that our God would not create a person whose life has been predestined to be in hell. What do you think??????

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 11/4/2005:

Judas is almost certainly in hell. God did not predestine Judas to betray Christ, but God knew for all eternity that Judas would willingly do this and allowed him to fit into the plan of providence which allowed the Crucifixion of Christ. The role Judas played was for the good of others but not for himself. Given the special role and graces given him, his failure to turn back to Christ as St. Peter did, his wickedness such that he stole money collected for the poor, and his last act of self destruction, there is little room for doubt. Add to this the words of our Lord that better had he not been born, and the case is closed. As to possession, Judas had already made himself a ready vessel for Satan, by his loss of grace and wickedness.

Thanks, Lori

Father Echert

COPYRIGHT 2005

Thank you Father Echert. May God bless him and his ministry.

WarriorAngel · Nov 17, 2005

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 11/4/2005:

Judas is almost certainly in hell. God did not predestine Judas to betray Christ, but God knew for all eternity that Judas would willingly do this and allowed him to fit into the plan of providence which allowed the Crucifixion of Christ. The role Judas played was for the good of others but not for himself. Given the special role and graces given him, his failure to turn back to Christ as St. Peter did, his wickedness such that he stole money collected for the poor, and his last act of self destruction, there is little room for doubt. Add to this the words of our Lord that better had he not been born, and the case is closed. As to possession, Judas had already made himself a ready vessel for Satan, by his loss of grace and wickedness.

Yep yep...Jesus read hearts, and this is why He can judge humanity...since He is God.

He did not say these things to MAKE Judas be a partner to the act of betrayal, and yet Christ still said..."Those who blaspheme the Son may be forgiven, and those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not."

My take...
Judas could have been forgiven for betraying Christ, but not for killing himself.

Judas would not allow himself forgiveness.... and so with his pride, he took his life instead of believing.

Judas went to hell for suicide and by his suicide he prooved he did not believe in the Lord's grace which is the Holy Spirit... but not for betraying the Son. For the Son can forgive that...but He cannot forgive suicide.

The act is done.

Peace!

Tonks · Nov 17, 2005

Servus Iesu said:
Thank you Father Echert. May God bless him and his ministry.

We agree. Something must be wrong....must go to my confessor.

I enjoy the text in your sig above the picture.

training4utopia · Nov 17, 2005

Servus Iesu said:
Well, Jesus refers to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as unforgiveable, correct? Yet we agree that as long as one is alive and whenever one trully turns to God and repents they can be forgiven. Do you agree?

I say that despair is a sin against the Holy Spirit because despair which manifests itself in suicide allows no room for repentance. We can only repent while we are alive. Once we are dead we have run out of chances. Thus, after Judas betrays our Lord he despairs and dies in the act of committing a sin against his body, which is also a temple of the Holy Spirit. It is a sin against the theological virtue of hope.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable because you have just slaughtered your conviction. In other words one would not realize or care if they did it. Also Jesus did call Judas a devil. Therefore the Spirit of God couldn't have been in him. Which will lead to despair. In fact it's only natural to despair if you TRULY HAVE NO HOPE. In fact I think this merits some strong consideration. While there isn't evidence to show Judas blasphemed the Holy Spirit. There is evidence to show that the Holy Spirit wasn't dwelling in him. And also could have sinned away his day of grace.

How could he have sinned against the Holy Spirit when the Spirit seems to have not been in him. Without the Spirit one would have to despair. Listen to what we're saying. We are now discussing Judas' real downfall being his suicide, instead of betraying Jesus.

By the way your last statement makes the suicide look like sin against the Holy Spirit, not the despair. Since our body is a temple for the Holy Ghost. There is no reason to believe the Spirit of God was in him, in fact we might be able to answer this question. Clearly and accurately. He was despairing because he truly had sinned away his day of grace, which is also unforgiveable. If God gave Pharroh a heart of stone, what did he give Judas?

THERE SHOULD BE LITTLE DOUBT. JUDAS IS IN HELL, AND IT'S THE BIBLE THAT LEADS US TO THIS CONCLUSION

Servus Iesu · Nov 17, 2005

training4utopia said:
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable because you have just slaughtered your conviction. In other words one would not realize or care if they did it. Also Jesus did call Judas a devil. Therefore the Spirit of God couldn't have been in him. Which will lead to despair. In fact it's only natural to despair if you TRULY HAVE NO HOPE. In fact I think this merits some strong consideration. While there isn't evidence to show Judas blasphemed the Holy Spirit. There is evidence to show that the Holy Spirit wasn't dwelling in him. And also could have sinned away his day of grace.

How could he have sinned against the Holy Spirit when the Spirit seems to have not been in him. Without the Spirit one would have to despair. Listen to what we're saying. We are now discussing Judas' real downfall being his suicide, instead of betraying Jesus.

By the way your last statement makes the suicide look like sin against the Holy Spirit, not the despair. Since our body is a temple for the Holy Ghost. There is no reason to believe the Spirit of God was in him, in fact we might be able to answer this question. Clearly and accurately. He was despairing because he truly had sinned away his day of grace. If God gave Pharroh a heart of stone, what did he give Judas.

<b>THERE SHOULD BE LITTLE DOUBT. JUDAS IS IN HELL, AND IT'S THE BIBLE THAT LEADS US TO THIS CONCLUSION</b>

I think both suicide and despair are sins against the Holy Spirit and they are quite intimately connected. All amounts to a permanent rejection of God's grace and the possibility of forgiveness. It seems that we are in agreement and I confess that I'm not sure what we are debating any more.

training4utopia · Nov 17, 2005

As far as where Judas went, yes. In fact I now agree with you about suicide being a sin against the Holy Ghost. In fact I should have already known. Of course it is, so is smoking or anything that can harm the Spirits temple. But despair being a sin against the Spirit, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Ok I'm trolling, I have to shut up!

Bushido216 · Nov 17, 2005

Servus Iesu said:
You would make God into a diabolical puppeteer. Jesus knew Peter was a good man who would repent of his sin and he knew that Judas was a devil who would return to his father.

Hm, that makes a little more sense, the whole foreknowledge thing. Of course, if Jesus had that ability, wouldn't He have known that His praying in the garden would result in what it did?

WarriorAngel · Nov 17, 2005

Bushido216 said:
Hm, that makes a little more sense, the whole foreknowledge thing. Of course, if Jesus had that ability, wouldn't He have known that His praying in the garden would result in what it did?

Praying in the Garden resulted in strengthening Himself for His mission.

Releasing His human fears and talking to His Father...and having Angels help Him.

WarriorAngel · Nov 17, 2005

training4utopia said:
As far as where Judas went, yes. In fact I now agree with you about suicide being a sin against the Holy Ghost. In fact I should have already known. Of course it is, so is smoking or anything that can harm the Spirits temple. But despair being a sin against the Spirit, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Ok I'm trolling, I have to shut up!

Despair results from 'desperate' and when in this mode, we forget we can still trust in God.
If we deny Him, and kill ourselves, then we despaired from His aid.

Is Judas in Hell? Are we certain of this?

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