Is it wrong to touch?

sally.b · Nov 14, 2005

intricatic said:
I would say it's up to the individual to determine whether it is sinful or not. Like all things.

I agree we have a God given conscience which we need to follow when we arent too sure what the correct biblical thing to do is. The bible states this in Romans and also that we will be judged according to our concience and how we act on it.

But also the bible states that our consciences can become seared, so this is where a problem can occur.

indra_fanatic · Nov 14, 2005

sally.b said:
But also the bible states that our consciences can become seared, so this is where a problem can occur.

This is true. I will say that masturbation is a deed that is never justifiable, and if you think it is, you have a hardened heart.

kw5kw · Nov 14, 2005

QuantaCura said:
See Onan in Genesis. God killed him for spilling his seed. Some try and argue that he was killed for not giving his brother's widow more kids, but the usual punishment for that was just public humiliation, not death. God killed Onan for violating natural law. (Gen.38:9-10). In Deut. 25:5-10, a man also does not provide the widow of his brother children. God does not say he sould be killed, but rather humiliated. What did Onan do differently that earned him God's wrath? He spilled his seed purposefully.

Here's another good one:
1 Cor. 7:9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt.

Why not just touch?

Then of course there's 2000 years of constant Christian Tradition that says it's a sin.

God gave us genitals for a purpose and it wasn't to touch.

Onan was not masterbating!
Read the story and tell me where it is about touching yourself.

KJV said:
Gen 38:4 And she conceived again, and bore a son; and she called his name Onan.

Gen 38:6 And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.

Gen 38:7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.

Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

And Judah said unto Onan,.... Some time after his brother's death: go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her; Moses here uses a word not common for marriage, but which was peculiar to the marrying of a brother's wife according to a law given in his time: it appears to have been a custom before, and which the patriarch might be directed to by the Lord, in such a case when a brother died, and left no issue, for the sake of multiplication of seed, according to the divine promise, and which in the time of Moses passed into a law, see Deu25:5, and raise up seed unto thy brother; that might bear his name, and enjoy his inheritance. For this law or custom was partly political, to continue the paternal inheritance in the family, and partly typical, to direct to Christ the firstborn among many brethren, Rom8:29, who in all things was to have the preeminence, Col1:18; and this was not taken from the Canaanites, among whom Judah now was, but from the ancient patriarchs, which they had no doubt from divine revelation, and was taught in the school of Shem, and handed down from father to son; for as to this being a law among the Egyptians in later times, and which continued to the days of Zeno Augustus, it is most likely they took it from the Jews.

KJV said:
Gen 38:9

KJV said:
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

The sin of Onan was that of not obeying the LORD! Not doing what he was told to do, and that being to produce an aire for his dead brother. This is what the sin of Onan is -- not masterbating.

KJV said:
Gen 38:10

KJV said:
And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

kw5kw · Nov 14, 2005

Now, with the sin of Onan properly disposed of:

Yes masturbation is a sexual sin.

Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be either sexual immorality, impurity of any kind, or greed, as these are not fitting for the saints. (Net Bible)

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; (KJV)

Ephesians 5:3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; (NASB)

Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for Gods holy people. (NIV)

This is the major verse that says masturbation is a sin! I have given you four examples from four different translations. I like the way they all say it, but the NIV really puts it into words that mortal man can understand the best because that version says holy people. I think if were saved then we become Holy. (Lets save this for another thread, ok guys, dont jump on me for not posting a scripture reference about this here, Im concentrating on sexual impurity here, thanks anyway for thinking about it though.).

For Jesus said in Matthew 5:26 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.

27 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NIV)

This says anything that gives you the hint of thinking of taking a woman (or man for that matter) to bed is a sin. What else is masturbation? You just dont have that object of your sexual desire to consummate the act, so you improvise. You have sinned according to Gods law.

I want to let you know that you are not alone in this. Most men have done this. Ill admit that I have. I knew that it was a sin. I was pointed to a book by God. I picked this book up several times in the Christian bookstore that I now frequent. Finally, while watching Charles Stanley one Sunday morning he was doing the a series on the Landmines in the Path of the Believer This one was the first one on pride. It caused me to go to his web site and do an expanded study of his word. The whole series was there and there is one on Landmines in the Path of the Believer: Part Four - Sexual Sins . I opened the link and started reading. There he reverences the same book that Id picked up and put back down several times. Every Mans Battle by Stephen Arterburn. I read this page with zeal. I went out and purchased the book, and read it in two and a half days. For you see I had the same problem you stated you have. I have learned thru proper scripture listed in the book, how to avoid any temptations in the modern world. I wish I had that book with me, but I left it at home, and Im at work writing this to you.

1 Corinthians 6:13 The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. This is very true. Learn how to not look at a woman for anything but a person, not as an object of sexual desire. Remember Matthew 5:26-27 once again. If you even look at a woman lustfully, then you are sinning. Dont see a woman and take a free peek down her blouse, its a sin. Dont open a door for a woman so that you might watch her walk, thats a sin. Open the door to be courteous, then look away. Look at the floor, look at the ceiling, dont watch her wiggle. If the Coors twins come on during the NFL game youre watching, dont look, change the channel for 60 seconds. Dont watch shows like Desperate Housewifes that are full of sexual content, watch a religious station instead. Dont pick up a Playboy, or any magazine similar to or worse than, for any reason. Avoid sexual web sites and binary newsgroups, as they will lead to eternal damnation.

Romans 13:13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. (NIV) Yes, by all means live a pure life, it can be done. Ive learned to not look at a woman in a lustful nature. I dont pick up the newspapers Sunday morning papers ads any more, youll understand after you read the book (Every Mans Battle) about this. Lets look at Galatians 5:19: Here Paul states what the sins are, you notice whats first The acts of the sinful nature are obvious, sexual immorality, and if you can 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid every kind of evil. Then you can start on your way to redemption. God will help you through this problem. You can stop, you will stop, as I will pray for you. As stated in Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say No to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

Amen.

I hope this will help you,

Your brother in Christ,

Russ

Joykins · Nov 14, 2005

kw5kw said:
For Jesus said in Matthew 5:26 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.

27 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NIV)

This says anything that gives you the hint of thinking of taking a woman (or man for that matter) to bed is a sin. What else is masturbation? You just dont have that object of your sexual desire to consummate the act, so you improvise. You have sinned according to Gods law.

You are assuming that masturbation is always linked to lust when it isn't that way for everyone. There are people who maturbate while thinking of their spouse (who is not at the time sexually available), or for their spouse, or while thinking of no one or possibly even nothing at all. By your definition above, these people would not be sinning.

All the other verses you quote only support your point if you define masturbation first as sexual immorality; if masturbation is not, indeed, sexually immoral then those verses do not condemn it.

kw5kw · Nov 14, 2005

removed by author

intricatic · Nov 14, 2005

Joykins said:
You are assuming that masturbation is always linked to lust when it isn't that way for everyone. There are people who maturbate while thinking of their spouse (who is not at the time sexually available), or for their spouse, or while thinking of no one or possibly even nothing at all. By your definition above, these people would not be sinning.

All the other verses you quote only support your point if you define masturbation first as sexual immorality; if masturbation is not, indeed, sexually immoral then those verses do not condemn it.

That makes no sense that a person could touch while thinking of no one or nothing. For them to be thinking of no one, they would have to be thinking of some thing. You cannot get sexual gratification from nothing. For them to be thinking of nothing at all, well, I just explained that one didn't I? lol... But you're right, there are times when it would be acceptable, but it's all up to the individual and where their priorities lie.

kw5kw · Nov 14, 2005

Joykins said:
You are assuming that masturbation is always linked to lust when it isn't that way for everyone. There are people who maturbate while thinking of their spouse (who is not at the time sexually available), or for their spouse, or while thinking of no one or possibly even nothing at all. By your definition above, these people would not be sinning.

Joykins said:
All the other verses you quote only support your point if you define masturbation first as sexual immorality; if masturbation is not, indeed, sexually immoral then those verses do not condemn it.

Your point taken, however, I'll toss it back to you that 99.9% of the time a person's mind wanders from spouse. I'll admit that my mind does. My mind even wanders when...! A wandering mind is not a pure mind. That's what Jesus was alluding to in Matt 5:27-28.

If a person is not married then they don't have a spouse to be faithful to in their imaginations, so, it's a pure sin for them no matter what.

This is to replace the deleted post earlier. This is what I was trying to say, but it didnt come out this way earlier.

Thanks

Russ

jochanaan · Nov 14, 2005

It comes down to two questions: Is masturbation "sexual immorality"? If not, is it inherently lustful?

Well, masturbation is not sexual intercourse, since intercourse (sexual or otherwise), by definition, involves two or more people. Therefore it doesn't fall under the sexual prohibitions in Scripture, since those are all about improper forms of sexual intercourse.

Is it "abusing oneself"? I would say not. It does no more harm than normal marital sexual intercourse, and there's no risk of venereal disease.

Now what about lust? Well, lust is not simple desire; it is a fixed intention (even if only for a "moment of consent") to act, contrary to God's laws. "I'd do it with her/him if I could." Not, "I'd do it if God's law allowed it," or "...if s/he'll marry me." A moment or two of fantasy is hardly a fixed intention.

Indeed, there are some who touch precisely because they wish not to break God's law.

So I would say masturbation is not wrong and may indeed be helpful in some cases.

praying · Nov 14, 2005

kw5kw said:
Now, with the sin of Onan properly disposed of:

Yes masturbation is a sexual sin.

Of course bigger and bold always = right.

Not

kw5kw · Nov 14, 2005

mhatten said:
Of course bigger and bold always = right.

Not

It was a title!

praying · Nov 14, 2005

kw5kw said:
It was a title!

And? The title was used to drive home a point, just in case the rest of the post wasn't read. None of those verses specifically address mastrubation. AS has been stated, in terms of your objection:

This says anything that gives you the hint of thinking of taking a woman (or man for that matter) to bed is a sin. What else is masturbation? You just dont have that object of your sexual desire to consummate the act, so you improvise. You have sinned according to Gods law.

You can mastrubate without thinking about taking a man or a woman.

Aras · Nov 14, 2005

mhatten said:
And? The title was used to drive home a point, just in case the rest of the post wasn't read. None of those verses specifically address mastrubation. AS has been stated, in terms of your objection:

You can mastrubate without thinking about taking a man or a woman.

This is true.

revrobor · Nov 14, 2005

kw5kw said:
Now, with the sin of Onan properly disposed of:

Yes masturbation is a sexual sin.

Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be either sexual immorality, impurity of any kind, or greed, as these are not fitting for the saints. (Net Bible)

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; (KJV)

Ephesians 5:3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; (NASB)

Ephesians 5:3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for Gods holy people. (NIV)

This is the major verse that says masturbation is a sin! I have given you four examples from four different translations. I like the way they all say it, but the NIV really puts it into words that mortal man can understand the best because that version says holy people. I think if were saved then we become Holy. (Lets save this for another thread, ok guys, dont jump on me for not posting a scripture reference about this here, Im concentrating on sexual impurity here, thanks anyway for thinking about it though.).

For Jesus said in Matthew 5:26 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.

27 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (NIV)

This says anything that gives you the hint of thinking of taking a woman (or man for that matter) to bed is a sin. What else is masturbation? You just dont have that object of your sexual desire to consummate the act, so you improvise. You have sinned according to Gods law.

I want to let you know that you are not alone in this. Most men have done this. Ill admit that I have. I knew that it was a sin. I was pointed to a book by God. I picked this book up several times in the Christian bookstore that I now frequent. Finally, while watching Charles Stanley one Sunday morning he was doing the a series on the Landmines in the Path of the Believer This one was the first one on pride. It caused me to go to his web site and do an expanded study of his word. The whole series was there and there is one on Landmines in the Path of the Believer: Part Four - Sexual Sins . I opened the link and started reading. There he reverences the same book that Id picked up and put back down several times. Every Mans Battle by Stephen Arterburn. I read this page with zeal. I went out and purchased the book, and read it in two and a half days. For you see I had the same problem you stated you have. I have learned thru proper scripture listed in the book, how to avoid any temptations in the modern world. I wish I had that book with me, but I left it at home, and Im at work writing this to you.

1 Corinthians 6:13 The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. This is very true. Learn how to not look at a woman for anything but a person, not as an object of sexual desire. Remember Matthew 5:26-27 once again. If you even look at a woman lustfully, then you are sinning. Dont see a woman and take a free peek down her blouse, its a sin. Dont open a door for a woman so that you might watch her walk, thats a sin. Open the door to be courteous, then look away. Look at the floor, look at the ceiling, dont watch her wiggle. If the Coors twins come on during the NFL game youre watching, dont look, change the channel for 60 seconds. Dont watch shows like Desperate Housewifes that are full of sexual content, watch a religious station instead. Dont pick up a Playboy, or any magazine similar to or worse than, for any reason. Avoid sexual web sites and binary newsgroups, as they will lead to eternal damnation.

Romans 13:13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. (NIV) Yes, by all means live a pure life, it can be done. Ive learned to not look at a woman in a lustful nature. I dont pick up the newspapers Sunday morning papers ads any more, youll understand after you read the book (Every Mans Battle) about this. Lets look at Galatians 5:19: Here Paul states what the sins are, you notice whats first The acts of the sinful nature are obvious, sexual immorality, and if you can 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid every kind of evil. Then you can start on your way to redemption. God will help you through this problem. You can stop, you will stop, as I will pray for you. As stated in Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say No to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

Amen.

I hope this will help you,

Your brother in Christ,

Russ

With reasoning like this Russ you could say that driving a car is a sin. Simply attach the adjectives to driving and - BINGO - it's sinful.

There is no Scripture that addresses masturbation. If a person lusts while committing the act then it is the LUST that is sinful - NOT the act of masturbation. You need to be careful about attaching a meaning that is not there to Scripture just to support your personal belief.

Joykins · Nov 15, 2005

kw5kw said:
Your point taken, however, I'll toss it back to you that 99.9% of the time a person's mind wanders from spouse. I'll admit that my mind does. My mind even wanders when...! A wandering mind is not a pure mind. That's what Jesus was alluding to in Matt 5:27-28.

If a person is not married then they don't have a spouse to be faithful to in their imaginations, so, it's a pure sin for them no matter what.

I don't think it's a given that when people touch they always think about themselves having sex, or about real people at all. Literary erotica must serve someone, after all. And slash is mostly written and read by heterosexual women.

indra_fanatic · Nov 15, 2005

Joykins said:
I don't think it's a given that when people touch they always think about themselves having sex, or about real people at all. Literary erotica must serve someone, after all. And slash is mostly written and read by heterosexual women.

How can a person have sex (with him/herself or anyone) without thinking about sex?

Joykins · Nov 15, 2005

indra_fanatic said:
How can a person have sex (with him/herself or anyone) without thinking about sex?

Quite young children can touch, well before they know what sex is. Presumably they think of something else, perhaps only of what is happening with their body, or perhaps not much at all. If a child can do this, an adult can as well.

Dragons87 · Nov 15, 2005

Maybe there's no right and wrong answer to this. If you touch and afterwards you can still face God without a hint of guilt or shamefulness, then that's fine. For myself, I can't do that, because I know when I touch I think of immoral stuff. Therefore, I need to stop. It's your own reasoning and experience with God, really.

In Christ,
Tim

indra_fanatic · Nov 15, 2005

Joykins said:
Quite young children can touch, well before they know what sex is.

Yes, I know that. All that this proves is that the sex drive can start pretty young. The testes begin producing testosterone in small amounts at a very early age. However, in any case, I really doubt that very young children are reading and contributing to this masturbation thread.

jochanaan · Nov 15, 2005

Dragons87 said:
...For myself, I can't do that, because I know when I touch I think of immoral stuff...

But thinking about it is not at all the same as doing it or intending to do it. I can fantasize about what I would do if I won the lottery, but that's not at all the same as if I were to spend half my income buying lottery tickets.

"You can't stop the birds from flying round your head, but you can stop them from building nests in your hair." --Martin Luther

Is it wrong to touch?

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