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You can see it as the part(s) of you that are responsible for the executive functions of decision making.I see. So if "I" control my actions, that what exactly is "I"? And what determines the actions of "I"?
Nothing is inherently bad if there is not a standard to assess whether something is bad or not bad. Part of receiving Jesus as our Lord is to let His standard override our standard. Instead of using our values and our standard to decide what is good or bad (us being our own lord), we accept God's standard to be our standard (God being our Lord).I see. So do you mean to say that sinning isn't inherently bad, but only bad in the eyes of the highest authority (God) who punishes (or rewards) us accordingly?
Hey, hello! Thank you once again for taking the effort to help me!
I have asked a lot of wonderful people yesterday and today, and I appreciate all of their help. I have learned a lot from them.
However, I want to finish the last of my questions with you, and end this doubt once and for all. If you would like to help me with that, then thank you. If not, that is okay.
Then my lingering question. You say that the force of sin knows exactly what it's doing, knowing full well that it is doing bad.
Then I ask you, "Why would the force of sin/evil do bad things, while knowing that (1) what it's doing is bad and (2) that (as you've displayed in your list of pros and cons) it would be far more preferable/pleasurable to choose to do good?"
Why would the force of sin/evil even exist? If it knows it's doing bad, then what motivation could possibly be stronger for the force of sin than all of the pleasure, beauty and peace that God's path of good has to offer?
Finally, I have heeded your advice, and I have prayed to God. In my prayers I mostly ask questions, which he then answers. Not unlike this forum, really. My 'talk' with God about good, evil and sin went like this. Please let me know what you think of it.
Nothing is inherently bad if there is not a standard to assess whether something is bad or not bad. Part of receiving Jesus as our Lord is to let His standard override our standard. Instead of using our values and our standard to decide what is good or bad (us being our own lord), we accept God's standard to be our standard (God being our Lord).
God created space in which there can be a distinction between Himself and things that are not Himself.So God didn't create evil? Or did he create evil, but put no intention behind it?
Hey again Kees. I'm glad if we could help at all, you can ask as many questions as you'd like.
When I said "Force of Sin" I was specifically referring to the devil, Satan, and that he knows exactly what he's doing. I guess we can classify "force of sin" into 2 categories: The one is our inheritance from our ancestors Adam and Eve, we receive disobedience and being prone to sin; let's call it "predisposition to sin". The other is the influence of Satan, other fallen angels and the kingdom of darkness they have set up; let's call it "the deceit of the devil".
But the predisposition to sin by itself is nothing since we also have the guidance of God, His truth written in our hearts and a conscience that speaks to us; without the deceit of the kingdom of darkness sin would eventually cease, or at the very least removed to a very significant degree. So when I said "Force of Sin" I was referring to Satan, because this force isn't like an energy that came out of nowhere, nor does it have any place in my original, inherent identity. It is an intelligent, personal being with an agenda and a purpose.
So why is the devil doing what he does, knowing it is bad and evil?
Ezekiel 28:12-19
“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“ You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
“ You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
“ By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
“ Your heart was lifted up (proud) because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
“ You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”
Isaiah 14:12-15
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to hell, to the far reaches of the pit."
The Holy Bible tells us, the devil used to be the most beautiful creature with possibly the most important/desirable assignment in the kingdom of God. But because of his beauty, his high position, and gifts he had, "he corrupted his wisdom for the sake of splendor" and defied God and said "I will be like God and sit on His throne, I will be worshipped". He was the anointed cherub (a high positioned angel) who covered the glory of God. God probably used this one angel to speak, communicate and carry out certain orders to other angels, thus "the angel that covers" carried the light and glory of God with him where he went. This beauty and glory he received he wanted more of, and due to his beauty and position the Bible tells us he was able to deceive 1/3rd of the angels to convince them to defy God and follow him instead. Some apocryphal works say, that when God revealed His plan to become a human being and live amongst men, Satan petitioned that he may be the intermediary, "the middleman" of this event as he has always been in other matters but he was denied (later Virgin Mary is chosen). So having been denied of his request and given another, and seeing that God had already decided that He will put on flesh and become a man, which is "a little lower than the angels" as a being (Psalms 8:4-5 What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor) he decides he will have what he wants rather than obeying God, and that the angels will obey him instead. A war breaks out, the angels of God cast out the devil and angels that sided with the devil; the devil and the fallen ones are judged and are condemned.
Now all Satan seeks is to "prove a point". The devil is trying to display that nobody truly loves God, that every creation simply just "needs Him" and that people "only love Him for what God can give them". He's trying to prove that men won't let go of their pride, their own wishes, their own way, even for a small amount of time to please their Creator. He's trying to prove that everyone is like him, and that everyone deserves hell, and that even if men will see Him and His love, people will always love themselves more. Yet the Lord, the only One who knows it all says, this is not the case.
Satan and the other fallen angels did not heed the many warnings nor accept the mercy of God and opportunities to repent, understanding what it is that they do, and now they are judged and there remains no more choice for them. So all they are trying to do is "proving a point" in this little given time now. "The stronger motivation" is pride, and it isn't that is wiser, or better, or "stronger" in that sense; it's just that pride blinds with rage, consumes your mind and corrupts all wisdom. It's like a little brother attacking his older brother, knowing full well he's a lot weaker and has no hopes of even reaching with his short arms to strike his brother unless he lets him, yet because of pride he does it anyway.
In all this, what I'm saying is man-kind is deceived and enticed with feelings, lies, faulty and earthly wisdom into doing evil. But if people could see the love of God and all that He offers, and that who it is that they are grieving by sinning in all understanding, not a single human being would pick the path of evil.
Proverbs 21:4
Haughty eyes and a proud heart, the lamp of the wicked, are sin.
When I read your conversation, a verse came to my mind:
Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom.
And in all your getting, get understanding.
See, even though I listed you all those reasons to choose God in my previous post, to me also all I needed to choose God after living as an atheist for 24 years, was a single reason received with understanding: God exists and He is worthy.
The Lord is, of course, very right. It isn't directions of others that will cement the truth in your heart, but you have to embrace it in understanding.
God has said in His word that He has written His law in the hearts of men, so this is why He says "the innermost pure powerful desire of your soul, that is what is right". From what I can tell, He says you already know and, to a point, understand some of the things, as to why they are wrong. I believe He is saying that you should grow in this understanding, step by step.
And as for the last part, from what I can tell, what you are seeking is true peace. Living and enjoying life in true peace. But, see how God is very gentle, never breaks your free will and respects your decisions? Even though He knows where true peace and pleasures come from He wants you to make the decision and knock on His door on your own.
Though I was on my way to hell 3 years ago when I was 24, today I know there is only One who can make those feelings okay, and bring indescribable peace to the point where you are free from yourself in the truest sense, by understanding the truth. I also gave up pornography, and also video games; but it wasn't because a person came up to me and told me "they are wrong". I dropped pornography pretty much right away after believing in Christ, after I realized how grave and bad of a sin it is and how it grieves the Lord; and to me this wasn't hard because the understanding of it hit me like a brick to the face. I talk a little more in detail about pornography here: LINK
But giving up video games, which was pretty much an addiction in my life from the earliest of ages, was a process. It took me months and months to finally answer the conviction on my heart: Spending 8 to 10 hours every day on video games is not acceptable. Yet here, I also didn't find the strength to quit video games because someone told me so, but it was because I kept my relationship strong with the Lord and talked to Him every day, read my Bible (very important), and every day he built up understanding in me, and when the time came and I knocked on His door, He gave me such understanding that it wasn't hard to quit at all.
Everyone's journey is different, and as the Lord says, the decision is yours. The best advice I can give you is no matter what you do or what happens, never lose your connection with God. And when understanding comes, do not delay. God bless you Kees, take heart the counsel God the Father has given you.
When God gave the Law to Israel he gave it because the people could not adhere to righteousness if they didn't know what it was. In like manner how can you know what goodness and righteousness is if you do not know what sinfulness and unrighteousness is. Can you achieve Love without there being Hate? Light without there being darkness? Left without a right? Up without a down? Can you know what is bad if you do not know what is good or vice versa? If sin were not bad, God would have said so. He did not say so. Furthermore, the Lord had to take all of the sins of the world upon his shoulders. And God could not look upon his own sin. He was not sinful himself (proving that it was possible for a human and that is why He had to be fully human.) but the sins upon His shoulders would not permit God to look on Him or answer Him or touch Him.Hello men and women of God! This is my first post here.
I have been thinking a lot lately about the nature of sin, and I would dearly appreciate it if you guys would help me with answering this question. So thank you in advance!
Here is my question. Plain and simply: "Is sinning bad?"
Of course we all assume that sinning is bad, because it is written in the bible, but there are some questions that lead me to doubt that. Namely...
"Why did God create evil and sin in this world?"
You could say that that God did not create us to do evil, but that he gave us free will, so that if we choose evil, we face the consequences and it we choose good, we are rewarded with God's grace.
But then here is my real question: "If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then why does he create people that he knows will sin? And is sinning then really bad?"
Let's say God creates a person and grants him free will. However, God also created that person with a mental instability / weak will (which, let's assume makes him prone to murderous acts). Subsequently, let's say God then also places that person in an environment with abusive parents at home and frequent bullying at school (which, let's assume, combined with his mental instability causes him to commit murder) And so, he shoots up his class. This is an example, but I'm sure cases like this have actually happened in real life.
In such a case, can the murderer then really be held responsible for his actions? I mean,
-(1) He was born and raised with triggers that would undoubtedly (to God) lead him to commit a murderous act.
-(2) God, while all-powerful and all-knowing knew he would murder, yet did nothing about the sinful act.
If God created the person's will and circumstance, knew the outcome of his sin, and did nohing about it, was is then truly 'bad' for the murderer to commit murder?
"Is sinning bad?" may sound like a strange question, but I am seriously pondering it, and I would appreciate it greatly if you fellow Christians would help me out. So thanks!
Greets, Kees
"Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us". Sanctification is an ongoing process. We will not become completely perfect until we get to heaven. That is part of how Christ taught us how to pray. Continually. We as Christians are to confess our sins to him because we still battle with the flesh. It's called spiritual warfare. No Christian has arrived. No one is justifying sin here. I'm saying I'm a Christian in need of forgiveness when I stumble. We all do. Saying you become perfect after you become saved is pretty much saying you don't need forgiveness. I understand the weight of what Jesus did for me, and I don't believe we sin because we want to but because we're being sanctified and it's a process.
Confession is an ongoing thing in the life of a Christian. We need it. Only by confession through sincere and remorse confession by his sacrifice are we forgiven and covered. Confession does by no means mean that we don't take to heart God's sacrifice or take advantage of his grace. You are assuming because one believes that Christians make mistakes means they believe in abusing grace.
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1-3
ompletely agree and glad I could clarify. That same thing frustrates me. I believe if we truly love God in the sanctification process we will continually become more like Christ. He's promised that if we love him and strive to obey Him His Spirit will be there to help us. This view about grace is so widespread today and it's not what the Bible teaches. It seems to justify us in sinning as if we are weak and we don't have to worry about it. But we can do all things through Christ's strength.
"If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then why does he create people that he knows will sin?
Let's say God creates a person and grants him free will. However, God also created that person with a mental instability / weak will (which, let's assume makes him prone to murderous acts). Subsequently, let's say God then also places that person in an environment with abusive parents at home and frequent bullying at school (which, let's assume, combined with his mental instability causes him to commit murder) And so, he shoots up his class. This is an example, but I'm sure cases like this have actually happened in real life.
This view about grace is so widespread today and it's not what the Bible teaches. It seems to justify us in sinning as if we are weak and we don't have to worry about it. But we can do all things through Christ's strength.
Scriptures please.
1 John 1:8 is not about a Christian!
You've read it out of context like all the rest who keep posting this same scripture out of context. What is the next verse? It is how to become a Christian. And look how many sins are cleansed - ALL. But not just individual sins, the whole sin nature!
About the child scenario:
I don't blame him for his actions, because his feelings and/or circumstances triggered him to commit them.
I am disappointed in his actions.
I think he should make his actions right.
How am I functioning under the assumpion that the kid can be held accountable for his actions?
And then about the question of strong and weak wills:
Say there are 2 people who are addicted to drugs. 1 fights the addiction and recovers, 1 loses the fight and stays addicted.
If we assume they have lived relatively similar lifes, than what REALLY is the difference between the two?
Why did 1 recover, and 1 lose the fight?
First of all, my position is that God does not create evil. If we acknowledge God as an unchanging, eternal God, then good and evil have existed for as long as God has existed. That is to say, infinitely and eternally.
I think you've sinned deliberately at one point or another. Probably recently.
If you deny this, the Bible says you are not being honest. We all sin.
However since we have the Spirit, we enter the process of sanctification where we transform to be more Christ like.
Another way of placing it: why does God need to discipline His children? Because of their unknown sins? They cannot even learn from their discipline if it's an unknown sin!
No. God disciplines His children when they indeed sin and knowingly sin. And it is to correct their behavior.
Hey Deniz, thank you a final time for your time, effort and great response.
This will be my last post in this thread, because I think everything is clear to me now.
First of all the 'origin' of sin. This whole time I have been looking for the original force of sin. After all, is sin truly bad if a certain force guides me in the bad direction? Of course there is a source of sin, and if I could find that source, I could blame all my sinning on that source, because THAT SOURCE is the reason why I sin. Free will becomes hard to define after this point of reasoning.
First I thought God created my desire to sin.
"Well", I thought, "If God created my desire to sin, then the blame is not on me. Then what am I doing wrong?"
Then I learned that God did not actually create my desire to sin, but that it originated from my own free will.
"Okay", I thought, "So the sinful force inside my 'free will' is to blame for my sinning?"
Then I learned that I have inhereted my sinful desires from adam and eve, who in turn were deceived by Satan.
"Eh... So then Satan is to blame for my sinning? But if Satan thinks sinning is good, and God thinks sinning is bad, then how do I know who's objectively right?"
THEN I learned that Satan ALSO thinks/knows that sinning is bad, yet he does it anyway. But how is sinning bad then according to Satan if he himself does it? I get why God thinks it's bad, but I don't get what's Satan's reason for thinking it is bad. And so, what's good or bad according to both God AND Satan is still unclear.
THEEEN I learned that Satan is being legitimate in his belief/knowledge that sin is bad because HE HIMSELF is being influenced by pride, which made him in turn influence us humans with sinful desires.
"Soooo, then the first cause of pride in Satan's mind is indirectly the cause (and so, to blame) for my sinning today?"
You see, this is the mind-mess that I ended up with. And now I have FINALLY realised that there is no logical way for me to know if sinning is bad according to ALL and EVERY THING (God, Satan, Pride, etc.). It's just impossible.
As long as I sin, it must mean that there is a cause that influences me to sin. And as long as there is a cause that influences me to sin, I can argue whether sinning is bad according that cause, even if the cause itself sees sinning as bad. And so no matter how I look at it...
I can NEVER have DEFINITIVE proof that sinning is bad according to ALL things.
I don't know if what I'm saying here is understandable, but in my mind it is clear that "I don't know if sinning is bad (according to all things)" is the only conclusion that I come to.
And therefore I will now stop this barrage of question that I now know has no logical end.
But perhaps the ultimate answer to right and wrong is not found in the realms of human logic.
As you said, God has written his law in our hearts.
I fully agree with this. Deep down I know what I should and should not do, because what HE desires, the innermost part of my soul desires.
I will act according to my deepest desire. And that is how I want to live my life.
And If The Lord desires something different from me, I will feel it and know it, for then that desire will become my own.
Thank you Deniz! This was a good conversation, and it helped me a lot.
I respect your openness to different ideas and suggestions, and answers from the heart.
God bless you too, my friend.
I can NEVER have DEFINITIVE proof that sinning is bad according to ALL things.
If evil is eternal, then evil will continue in heaven. Then evil is as much a God as God. They are equal. That is totally untrue.
never implied anything .. i said i don't YET know what your final point is (referring to the post you made) . AND then -i went on to present a point .
one thing about getting offended though .. when we are dead to our selves and it is Christ that lives in us -its not possible to offend us . because you cant offend a dead person .
I hear you. I don't think that evil as a concept having always existed makes it equal to God (evil is not a consciousness, but is as I said, a moral concept.) Evil does not continue in Heaven because Heaven is the closest place one can possibly get to God, and no evil can exist in Him. This also brings the question of hell into play; do you believe in an eternal hell? If so, does that not mean that evil continues to exist eternally? It is certainly a complicated subject.
touché! But hell didn't always exist. Only our Holy God has existed from not only the end, but the beginning.
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