Is it this or is it that?

[luvs_luv]

Scripture confusion or confusing scriptures.

This is just one of many many scripture(s) confusions I have. I’ll try to ask about more if the post continues.


Did God create all things or did Jesus create all things?


To answer that, I should first ask myself, Is God and Jesus two separate gods with God the Father being the greater God or is there another way to refer to the two of them? My answer is I don’t know the answer, but in reading the OT I see it written "God", "God our Lord" and "Lord". "the Lord God", etc.


Now to show how confused I am about these questions, and maybe you can help clear these up and many more I have.


The following say “the creation of God”. My problem is when I think of “God” I am thinking of God the Father or God the Godhead. However, I could be confusing the name God or Lord God not being God the Father or God the Godhead but actually being Jesus the son of God or Jesus who is also called Lord. How do I distinguish and is it even important that I do?


Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.


Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


And to further my confusion, Jesus said if you know Him you know the Father. Or is it if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father? Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him


But then the scripture says no man has seen the Father except Jesus.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So am I to understand which “God” is being spoken of or does this have nothing to do with true Bible/scripture study?


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It does say ALL SCRIPTURE .... AND (ALL) IS PROFITABLE FOR .... Right? How do I properly study and understand? I know I have Jesus as my Savior and that I have been given "faith" and "grace" and a measure of the Holy Spirit. Why is studying so hard?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Luvs_Luv, maybe it would help the confusion if we took this a little bit at a time. Two of your questions, is Jesus God and who was responsible for Creation, can be answered by the same passage from the first chapter of John.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:1-3
​

And Paul makes a similar statement in Colossians 1:16.

He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-17​

​

From these passages we learn that Jesus is God, and that He is the One directly responsible for the Creation of all things, right?

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - but if Jesus "IS" God, how can He also be "WITH" God (John 1:1)? Next up, two of the great "mysteries" of the Christian faith, the Deity and humanity of Christ, and the Trinity of God.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God"
Isaiah 45:5​

 

[luvs_luv]

Hi Luvs_Luv, maybe it would help the confusion a bit if we took this a little bit at a time. Two of your questions, is Jesus God and who was responsible for Creation, can be answered by the same passage from the first chapter of John.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:1-3
​

And Paul makes a similar statement in Colossians 1:16.

He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-17​

​

From these passages we learn that Jesus is God, and that He is the One directly responsible for the Creation of all things, right?

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - but if Jesus "IS" God, how can He also be "WITH" God (John 1:1)? Next up, two of the great "mysteries" of the Christian faith, the Deity and humanity of Christ, and the Trinity of God.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God"

Isaiah 45:5​

David, Please, please do share the "two great mysteries of the Christian faith, the Deity and humanity of Christ and the Trinity of God." To me it is a mystery that cannot be explained by my limited understanding. I hope you can make it clear to understand with the scriptures that do not contradict any other scriptures.

 

[St_Worm2]

David, Please, please do share the "two great mysteries of the Christian faith, the Deity and humanity of Christ and the Trinity of God." To me it is a mystery that cannot be explained by my limited understanding. I hope you can make it clear to understand with the scriptures that do not contradict any other scriptures.

Hi Luvs_Luv, unfortunately, I need to run back up to my office right now, but I'm going to send you a couple of things to read via PM that should help in the meantime. Remember that by their very nature, mysteries of God are things that we will not be able to fully grasp or explain, at least not in this life. That does not mean they are not true however.

Take a careful look at what I'm sending you and we'll talk later.

Yours and His,
David

 

[luvs_luv]

Hi Luvs_Luv, unfortunately, I need to run back up to my office right now, but I'm going to send you a couple of things to read via PM that should help in the meantime. Remember that by their very nature, mysteries of God are things that we will not be able to fully grasp or explain, at least not in this life. That does not mean they are not true however.

Take a careful look at what I'm sending you and we'll talk later.

Yours and His,
David

Thanks David, I read the PM but am not able to respond yet until I have a certain number of posts. It didn't help I am sorry to say. Is there a difference between God to the Israelites and then when Jesus came the Jews rejected Jesus because of the OT scriptures so clearly stating God is One and only one? And what did Paul teach the Gentiles? I'm going to study some more, but this Trinity mystery is still clear as mud right now.

 

[mark avery]

All was created through our lord, so in effect, all belongs and was made by him also........

 

[Quasicentennial]

Sin has prevented us believers from understanding the Word of God. I wish God would go back in time and remove Satan from the Garden of Eden so that Adam and Eve would not be deceived by him for eating the forbidden fruit. All we Christians can do is keep in faith with God without losing it while we are at war with Satan. Satan's deceitful efforts would be destroyed once Jesus returns sometime in the future. Hopefully when Jesus returns, the transformation of our new minds of Christ from our earthly-born minds would see clearly what the Word of God is all about and how atoms can be like mini-solar systems where they can create and destroy.:*:.

 

[wayseer]

this Trinity mystery is still clear as mud right now.

It is 'mud' to most Christians so you are a long way from being alone.

To fully understand the theology behind the Trinity you need to go back to the patristic Fathers and the historical development of the Nicene Creed. This is a complicated history and I am not going to give it to your here. What I will give is a potted history in the hope that some aspects might resonate with the words of the Creed.


When Christianity broke with Judaism during the latter part of the 1st century there were many christologies - or many ways of relating to Christ. Initially this was not a serious problem as everyone knew what was meant. But as the 1st century turn into the 2nd century a number of teachings arose that where causing problems. 1 Tim 6:20 refer to the 'profane and vain babblings' which were clearly something in opposition to accepted understanding. Acts 8:9 also mentions a certain 'Simon Magnus' who was causing the same sort of problems.

Quite simply, these 'babblings', which included the words of Marcion and the Gnostics, were the words that spoke of a different God. The point was early Christianity had nothing to turn to on which to make some judgement - nothing had been written down. So the questions which you raise were exactly those raised by many during those formative years.

Was God the same as Jesus, and if so, how? And just where did the Holy Spirit fit into the equation? These were open questions and it occupied the minds of many well respected Fathers of the Church. The outshot was that in 325 there was an agreement on the Nicene Creed which was later addressed in 381 at another council.

The theology behind these decisions has been the subject of many books are articles. For a more broader work you might look here.

 

[St_Worm2]

... this Trinity mystery is still clear as mud right now.

OK LL, agreeing with Wayseer, you are in good company if you are having difficulty comprehending the Trinity. Remember, as per Dr. Packer,

The historic formulation of the Trinity seeks to circumscribe and safeguard this mystery (not explain it; that is beyond us), and it confronts us with perhaps the most difficult thought that the human mind has ever been asked to handle. It is not easy; but it is true.
​

To try to answer your third question (from the OP), "are God and Jesus two separate Gods", in a little different way, here are a couple of examples that helped me a bit when I was first confronted with this doctrine. Please bear in mind however that these examples are problematic at best and should always be taken 'with a grain of salt'!

Again, and just to answer your question plainly, God and Jesus are not two separate Gods. Both are fully God, yet Scripture makes it clear that there is only ONE God. Confused ..

Trinity Example #1 - this one uses water to try to explain the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity tells us that God is one in essence, yet three in person. In this example, the "essence" is water, the persons are ice, liquid water, and steam. All have different 'personalities' if you will, yet all are still "water".

Trinity Example #2 - God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS are seen as three candles standing together. Three candles, one light.
​

Please remember that these examples are FAR from thorough or perfect, but hopefully they'll help you a little.

As for there being a different God in the OT and NT, nope, He's the same yesterday, today and forever. The finger that wrote on the ground in John 8:6 belongs to the same God that wrote the 10 Commandments twice on stone tablets at Mt Sinai, (see Exodus 31:18).

Yours and His,
David

"Before Me there was no God formed,
and there will be none after Me"
Isaiah 43:10b​