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Is it really a choice?

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Tzaousios

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If there is no choice, then why are we told we have a choice?

I am not sure which denomination you belong to, but sadly many preachers and evangelists are not as open about their soteriological presumptions as you want them to be. It can become a major problem starting with training in seminaries and spilling over into the pastor hiring process.

Although all denominations do not make the clear distinction, within Protestantism and some Roman Catholic circles there are two camps of soteriology. One believes in the total, absolute sovereignty of God in both mundane and spiritual matters, and that man has no free will. The other believes that man does have the will and ability to make a decision to accept or reject the Gospel. Of course, there are sub-categories and gradations within each, as members disagree on the specifics.

The first group holds onto a notion of the human will that is predicated on an entirely different set of philosophical and theological paradigms than the second. Their concept of the will comes from Augustine, who had departed from the general patristic understanding, and from later Reformation and post-Reformation thinkers. They read passages in Scripture that imply that humans have choices in spiritual matters based on this assumption.

They think that the will is only "free" in that it can choose and act based on its desire, which for the unregenerate is according to the sinful nature. The unregenerate can only choose to sin until grace transforms and frees the will from the bondage of the sin nature. In essence, a person is only a passive receptacle until grace impacts them, and this happens only if before the foundation of the world God has decided that he will send grace to them.

The second group derives their understanding of the human will, from what I can tell, from a combination of the Platonic/Neoplatonic view and a literal reading of passages where a choice is implied in the Bible. What I mean by the "Platonic/Neoplatonic view" is that an intelligent, rational human can ultimately exercise a choice between options based on knowledge and previous experience.
 
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dies-l

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ouch.
I can see why you might think your views would not go over too well with those of us who believe that Jesus meant it when He said that He is the ONLY way to the Father.

He said the He is, not that Christianity is.

If your views were accurate, then arent WE sending people to hell by spreading the gospel and bringing them Christ so they can reject Him ?
Not at all. I think that the Bible is quite clear that God reveals himself to everyone, through, e.g., his Creation, regardless of whether there is anyone physically available to preach to them the Gospel. If a person, being made aware of God, through, e.g., His Creation, is not humbled and led to pursue a genuine relationship with God, that person will not likely be convinced when the missionaries show up. However, if such a person is humble and willing, then the missionaries will have the opportunity to lead this person to deepen his spiritual experience through a deeper and more adequate knowledge of who God is. I believe that, as far as our eternity is concerned, all that is needed is a willingness and humility to pursue God (which is arguably something a lot of "Christians" lack), and God's grace takes care of the rest. However, there is far more to our Christian journey than being assured of resurrection and eternal life. There is also the daily growth that only happens when we are actively in relationship with Christ, which I believe is equally important as the promise of eternity

But to answer your question in brief, either a person is willing or a person is unwilling to accept Christ. The presence of the preaching of the Gospel in a given region does not hamper those who have this willingness. However, when done correctly, it may open doors of willingness for those who were previously unwilling.
 
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one11

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Those things you listed are common sense.

Its not lThe things you listed are common sense.

Dont forget that without the words of others, we wouldnt even know of his existence, so I believe it to be a different situation

During the Cold War before the internet my church was involved in shipping Bibles to communist countries. They were hungry for the Bible and the shipments, although it was very "underground" so to speak. The shipments made it and the Bible shipments flouished during those years. And there have been underground Bible shipments for centuries, dgirl, with all kinds of peoples working in concert together.

The Bible has been preached in all nations now. Some people read it and follow Christ, others simply don't for whatever reasons they chose.

Also, with the internet and other knowledge in the hypermedia society we have today I doubt anyone hasn't heard of the Bible, not to mention the myriad of underground Bible missions, even in the Middle East.

The only way to the Father is Christ. He is the high priest, the judge, the mediator between us and God.

God himself bore our punishment when the word became flesh so that we might live, and that is one awesome God.
 
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Adoniram

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If there is no choice, then why are we told we have a choice?
Perhaps I wasn't quite clear. When we are born, we are all on the path to death and hell. But if one does not actively choose to believe in and follow Christ, that in itself is a choice.

Side note: What about babies and small children that pass away? Will they go to hell? Many, including myself, believe that God does not hold them accountable until they reach the "age of understanding." The age at which they understand the differences between right and wrong, have the capability of understanding who Jesus is and what Jesus has done for us. Those who pass away before this time will go to heaven. The Biblical teaching for this comes from 2 Samuel 12:15-23, where we find the story of the death of David's first son with Bathsheba. In verse 23, David says "Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." David knew that he would see the child again in heaven.
 
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Adoniram

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I think you would be right that condemnation comes from rejecting Christ. But, rejection of Christ comes in many forms, one of them being Buddhism. I'm not sure what point that you are trying to make, maybe that there are many paths to heaven and/or God? Big, big problems with that because it is completely at odds with what the Bible teaches.

But Buddhism is a poor example to use. There is no concept of "heaven" in Buddhism. Not even a concept of God. Those who follow Buddhism do not seek eternal life, quite the opposite. They seek "nirvana" which means cessation or extinction, a breaking of the cycle of reincarnation which is a major premise of their belief. One who is seeking more of the "truth of God" would not find it in Buddhism, and if they truly understand Buddhism, would not seek it there.

You may be referring to the means by which Buddhists seek to achieve nirvana: through ethical conduct and altruistic behavior, devotional practices, ceremonies, meditation, and the cultivation of wisdom, etc. All these traits are admirable, but will not in themselves lead to God or heaven. One cannot achieve salvation through works.
 
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dies-l

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Not at all. I do believe that Jesus is the only way -- I do not reject orthodoxy in that particular regard. However, I believe that we are judged not on our works, but on our faith. I believe that it is possible to have faith in Jesus without ever having heard His name, and I do not believe that salvation comes from some specific formulaic prayer or religious observance. Rather, it comes from faith, which is a decision to make God (the one True God, as revealed in the person of Jesus Christ) the priority of our life. My belief is that, if a person is truly seeking and following Truth to the best of their ability, based upon the information and resources that are available to that person, then God will honor that, even if the result is that that person ends up on a spiritual path that is quite different from Christianity, just like He honors sincere Christians who buy into some of the garbage that is sold at many Christian churches.

It is not the religion, or alternate spiritual path that God honors, but rather the individual's willingness to follow Truth, to love wholeheartedly to the best of their ability, "and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."


Buddhism and Christianity do have a similar ideal in mind, but a much different idea as to how that ideal is realized. Nirvana is the cessation of suffering, Eternal life as understood in the Christian faith (the Bible says nothing about believers "going to heaven," but rather says that God will make His dwelling among men) is also the cessation of suffering. In the sense, they are quite similar. Buddhism, however, accepts as a given that existence is suffering and that the only way to eliminate suffering is to eliminate existence. Being a non-theistic religion, this makes sense and rings true in the sense that, without an understanding of a personal and perfect God who intervenes in human affairs, the only way to cease suffering would be to cease existing. Certainly, this is quite different from Christian teaching, but like in most world religions, it reflects elements of the Truth.

You are right, in a sense, that Buddhism, is non-theistic. It does not contain as one of its core beliefs the existence of a personal deity. Rather, its object of worship is the three treasures: the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha (roughly understood as the Teacher, the Truth, and the Spiritual Community). These three combine is a way that serves for Buddhists almost as a divinity. Once again, comparing Buddhism to Christianity, I see Buddhism as containing imperfect elements of the Truth.

I would argue, however, that the lack of a "competing" personal deity makes Buddhism a stronger example than other world religions. Unlike the Baal and Ashera worshippers in the Old Testament, they have no god that is demanding of them sacrifices and other actions that impede their service to the True God, at whatever elementary level, they understand him. And, Buddhism is non-theistic, not atheistic. It does not teach that God exists, nor does it have as a central teaching that no god exists. Thus, there are many Buddhists who are also theists.

But, in my argument, Buddhism is certainly not what saves. It is the individual's willingness to pursue the True God with all of their being. I believe that the Bible is clear that, if a person truly seeks God with a heart that humble and willing, then God will reveal Himself to that person, even if through less than ideal means. All throughout Scripture, we see God working with less than ideal situations (even adultery and murder, as in the case of David, Bathsheeba, and Uriah) and even through a far from perfect Church. I have no trouble trusting that God can even work through flawed religious systems.

I explain what I do about Buddhism to say this. Although it is clearly divergent from the Truth in many ways, it is completely understandable to me how a person who humbly seeks God, but who has never heard the Gospel would be attracted to Buddhism. In the example that I am speaking of now, that person has made the choice to follow Truth and Love. The Bible tells us that Christ is the source of all Truth and all Love. Thus, a person who is truly seeking these things is seeking God. There is much about Buddhism that resembles Truth and Love, and if a person, having never had the Gospel explained to Him, follows after his own heart's yearning for the Truth through the path of Buddhism or some other religion, I believe that God can use that nonetheless.

By the same token, if a person with an unwilling heart is a devout Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Non-denom, Presbyterian, etc., that person, despite their religious devotion and piety is rejecting Christ, and cannot be saved without a change of heart.


I agree with you that salvation is by faith and by faith alone. But, I believe that God judges us on the willingness of our hearts, not on the specifics of our religious observances. This is absolutely not to say that "all paths lead to the same destination." Buddhism will never lead a person to the Truth, nor will Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, etc. However, a person's pursuit of the Truth, in the absence of adequate teaching of the Gospel, may lead that person on a journey that includes religious activities that are un-Truth (just like many Christian observances are un-Truth).

This reminds me of the film, The End of the Spear that came out a few years back. In that movie, missionaries were reaching out to tribes in the Amazon. When the missionaries first began to evangelize, they did not tell the people about a man named Jesus who lived 2000 years ago. Instead, they began by working within that tribe's religious traditions to explain who Jesus was. They spoke of the supreme god in that culture's tradition, and said that that god had a Son who had come to Earth, and that the Son wanted them to stop killing each other. By working within the culture, the missionaries were able to share the Gospel message, and I don't doubt that those who decided to follow Jesus based on this very elementary understanding of who He was will be saved.

In the same way, I trust that God is able to use other non-Christian traditions to reveal Himself to the willing, especially where cultural influences or outright failure of the Church inhibits a clear and adequate teaching of the Gospel message.

I hope this clarified that I am neither claiming a works-based salvation theology nor an "all roads lead to the same destination" theology, but rather a "God is capable of saving the willing and the humble, regardless of their circumstances" theology.
 
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dayhiker

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I agree with the comment that decissions have consequences. That hell is the consequence of certian decissions does not mean they didn't make a decission. Ya they might not have known all the implications of what they were deciding to do but that doesn't bother me.

dayhiker
 
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Armistead

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Christ is the only way.


All of mankind will be reconciled by Christ. The myth of eternal hell is a pagan teaching that found it's way into the church to control the masses of fear.

God in no way and biblically it's proven would condemn any to eternal torture for following the beliefs they just happened to be brought up in, due to culture, parents, of just the church they walked into. The mass of humanity has never heard of Christ or the gospel, yet we would condemn then to eternal torture.

Christ is the savior of all mankind and in his timing and order will reconcile all of mankind unto himself through the cross. For many the gift has just not been revealed yet...but God will reveal it in his timing, not ours. For the mass of humanity that will be after death, but Christ saving power is not limited to just this time spent on earth.
 
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UnderHisWings1979

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For the most part, I would agree with you. However, there are still tribes in the Amazon and other areas that have never been contacted by outside civilization (that anyone knows of, anyway). I went to one such in Bolivia several years ago. So there are still people who have never heard the name of Christ.
 
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UnderHisWings1979

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Wow. So where exactly is the "lake of fire," if not in hell? Is there weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven? Christ actually refers to hell more than he refers to heaven. More importantly, Christ explicitly states that some who claim to follow him will not enter His Kingdom (Matthew 7:21-23). What Biblical "proof" are you referring to?
 
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god's_pawn

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so then, suppose i walk up to a non-believer and i ask them if they want to become a Christian. this person has no choice in the matter? i think not. they can accept it or refuse, I will not force them (for that is not love), nor will God (for that is not love either). it is there choice.

like the quote by Gandalf in the "Lord of the Rings" in responce to Frodo's complaint about being born in that time and that the ring had come to him: "That is not for us to decide; all we can decide is what to do with the time that is given us." we are born sinners, we have no choice there; but we do have a choice as to whether or not we will accept God's gift of life.
 
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Zecryphon

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I'm curious. Which scripture are you thinking of when you say God tells us to make a choice?
 
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Adoniram

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OK, I kinda get what you're saying. God will find a way to get the true message of Christ to those whom he has elected. I just think that the devil uses all these other religions, filled with half-truths and things that "seem" right to lead the unsuspecting away from God, and once they get embroiled in these other religions, it makes it harder for the true message of Truth to get through to them.
 
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ebia

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THe problem is the mis-framing of the question. The choice on offer is to be part of God's future Kingdom or not. To choose not and then complain about it is silly. Your analogy would be better restated as "... saying to a kid, you can listen to the story if you want...but if you dont you won't get a story." The kid that chooses "no" can hardly complain that they have to go to bed without a story - that was their choice.

God will complete his New Creation. Those that choose to not to be part of that can't hold the rest of creation to ransom - they must be consigned to the winnowing fire/rubbish heap/whatever-metaphor-you-prefer so that evil is eliminated and the rest of creation can get on with working the way it was always meant to work.
 
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dies-l

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Your point is well taken, but I do think that devil also uses the Church, and we know, from Matthew 4, that he also uses Scripture.
 
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dies-l

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It is preached to us through the books we read and church etc. If it is not a choice, why give us free will?

One of the difficulties of this discussion is that there is a substantial grouping of Christians who don't believe in free will. Personally, I do not understand this view, but this is one of the responses that has shown up a number of times on this thread.

My belief is that God does give us free will, but that He also reveals Himself clearly enough that all people have an opportunity to choose to reject Him.
 
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Armistead

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Do a search on Universal Salvation. We've had threads here that have had over a 1000 post.....as not to derail this thread.
 
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