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Is it possible to negotiate with Iran?

Is Iran the least bit civilised

  • yes

  • no


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romanov

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Based on the article below, do you believe the government of Iran is civilized enough to honestly deal with us?

www.sundaymirror.co.uk

Sunday Mirror
23 July 2006
EXCLUSIVE: HANGED FROM A CRANE AGED 16
EXCLUSIVE JUSTICE IRAN STYLE: SICK GIRL EXECUTED BY JUDGE SHE DEFIED
Her crime? She had sex with an unmarried man

By Susie Boniface

IT WAS exactly 6am and the start of another blisteringly hot summer day when 16-year-old Atefeh Rajabi was dragged from her prison cell and taken to be executed.
Every step of the way the troubled teenager plagued by mental problems shouted "repentance, repentance" as the militiamen marched her to the town's Railway Square.
The Iranian judge who had sentenced Atefeh to death was left unmoved as he personally put the noose around her neck and signalled to the crane driver.
Kicking and screaming, Atefeh was left dangling for 45 minutes from the arm of the crane as the crowd sobbed and - under their breath - damned the mullahs.
Atefeh's crime? Offending public morality. She was found guilty of "acts incompatible with chastity" by having sex with an unmarried man, even though friends say Atefeh was in such a fragile mental state that she wasn't in a position to say no.
But Judge Haji Rezaii was determined she should hang, regardless of the rules of international law which say only adults over 18 can be executed, and that the courts have a duty to children and the mentally ill.​
trpix.gif


The brutal end to Atefeh's short life has shone a new light on Iran's Shariah law, where adultery, theft and rape all carry the same punishment - death. Officially around 100 people - some just children like Atefeh - are executed each year. But human rights groups say the true figure could be much higher in a country where only half of the women can read, only one in 10 have a job and two-thirds are beaten in their homes.

Life was never easy for Atefeh, who was brought up in the industrial town of Neka, 250 miles from Tehran and close to the Caspian Sea. Her mother died when she was a child and her father Ghasseem, a heroin addict, left her grandparents to bring her up. She suffered from bi-polar disorder, which led to severe mood swings from hyperactivity to depression. Worried parents told their children to stay away from her - something many regret now. "Perhaps we should have helped her instead," said Hamid. "I think the death of her mother had a devastating effect. Before that, she was a normal girl. Her mother was everything to her. After she died, there was no one to look after her."

Mina, a childhood friend, said Atefeh was abused by a close relative. "She never dared talk about it with an adult," said Mina. "If she had told her teacher they'd have called her a harlot. Tell the police? They lock you up and rape you." Atefeh first appeared in court, accused of having sex with an unmarried man at 14. Over the next two years she was accused of the same crime with different men.

They denied it and were sentenced to the lash and then released. But Atefeh pleaded guilty and each time received 100 lashes and a prison term. Mina said: "Atefeh sometimes talked about what these 'moral' Islamic policemen did to her while she was in jail. She still had nightmares about that. Atefeh said her mood swings made it easy for men to take advantage of her, and that most of her lovers were in the security force."

Two of them were members of the anti-vice militia. They encouraged other men to sign statements saying Atefeh had engaged in vice, and even claimed she had AIDS.
It was when Atefeh appeared before Judge Rezaii for a fourth time that she lost her temper - and also her life. In a rage she tore off her hi jab - a headscarf - and told the judge she had been raped and it was his duty to punish her tormentors, not their victim.

Rezaii told her she would hang for her "sharp tongue" and that he would put the noose around her neck himself. It became a personal crusade as he travelled to Tehran and convinced the Supreme Court to uphold his verdict.

Two petitions by her friends, saying she was mentally unwell, were ignored. Her father produced her birth certificate proving she was 16. Yet the judges "decreed" she was 22.
Atefeh also wrote to the Supreme Court: "There are medical documents that prove I have a weak nerve and soul. In some minutes of the day and night I lose my sanity. In a society where an insane person can be serially raped it is no wonder that a person like me is the victim of such an ugly act."

The day before she died she wrote again, saying: "Repentance, repentance, repentance." In Iranian law anyone who shows remorse has an automatic stay of execution and a right to appeal, but she was ignored.

A local pharmacist watched Atefeh's execution on August 15, 2004. "She looked so young standing there," he said. "Rezaii must have felt a personal grudge against her. He put the rope around her neck himself. I looked around and everyone in the crowd was sobbing and damning the mullahs." The family's lawyer has now filed a suit of wrongful execution against the judge and is preparing a murder case. Her life is also the subject of a secretly filmed documentary, Execution of a Teenage Girl, which will be screened on BBC2 on Thursday.

One of Atefeh's teachers said the authorities wanted to make an example of her: "She wouldn't take injustice from anyone, but the mullahs equate these qualities in a girl to prostitution and evil. They wanted to give all the girls and women a lesson."

Amnesty International UK director Kate Allen said: "The killing of Atefeh is a catalogue of the most appalling human rights violations. The public hanging of a child, believed to be mentally incompetent, totally beggars belief. To hang a child flies in the face of all that is humane."

CRUELTY OF SHARIA LAW
PENALTIES imposed by Iran's religious mullahs include:
THEF T: Amputation of hands or feet for persistent offenders.
ADULTERY: Death by stoning.
UNMARRIED SEX: 100 lashes.
CONVERSION TO RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM: Death.
SODOMY: Death for adults, 74 lashes for consenting child.
LESBIANISM: 100 lashes, or on the fourth occasion death.
HOMOSEXUAL KISS: 60 lashes.
RUBBING ANOTHER MAN'S THIGHS OR BUTTOCKS: 99 lashes - on 4th occasion, death.
susie.boniface@sundaymirror.co.uk
 
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Poke

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The US has no desire to negotiate with Iran, North Korea, or Saddam. The US pretenses of trying to negotiate with Iran are designed to fail. It tossed a small monkey wrench into Bush's plans when Saddam fully cooperated with the UN. But, Bush just lied before man and God and said Saddam wasn't cooperating.

Any Christian would respect Iran's use of the death penalty for fornication. This is the punishment set out by God for the Hebrew people. Such firm justice helps keep a culture clean and the streets safe. Iran's only crime is following a religion cribbed from Hebrew scripture.

How perverted it is for someone criticize a peaceful country for upholding God's standards while defending warmongering America, where millions of babies are legally murdered and sodomites are celebrated.
 
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romanov

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Poke said:
The US has no desire to negotiate with Iran, North Korea, or Saddam.

Iran= 26 plus years of on and off, direct and indirect negotiations

Iraq= 12 years of negotiations, several UN resolutions and Clinton threatened unilateral attack if Saddam did not follow the rules in 1998

North Korea= 52 years of on again off again negotiations.

Poke said:
The US pretenses of trying to negotiate with Iran are designed to fail. It tossed a small monkey wrench into Bush's plans when Saddam fully cooperated with the UN.

In what way did he cooperate?

Poke said:
But, Bush just lied before man and God and said Saddam wasn't cooperating.

Quote Bush's lie(s)

Poke said:
Any Christian would respect Iran's use of the death penalty for fornication.

He who is without sin.....

Poke said:
This is the punishment set out by God for the Hebrew people.

I am not Hebrew.

Poke said:
Such firm justice helps keep a culture clean and the streets safe.

So, you like this new twist to teenage hangouts?

Poke said:
Iran's only crime is following a religion cribbed from Hebrew scripture.

A judge hanged a mentally ill 16 year old rape victim and their only crime is crib notes?

Poke said:
How perverted it is for someone criticize a peaceful country for upholding God's standards while defending warmongering America, where millions of babies are legally murdered and sodomites are celebrated.

Iran is peaceful, that's why they need nuclear arms as opposed to prisons for rapists.

I find it odd that you call us warmongering. We go to Somalia to feed starving people. We go to Bosnia to defend Muslims of all things. We go to Cosovo as a kind of peace keeping force to stop a supposed genocide. We go to Kuwait to kick out an invader. And we're war mongerers. We don't go to Rwanda and the Sudan to stop a genocide and we are heartless thugs. I might have agreed with you had you said that the US gets involved with wars we have no business in like Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII (which wouldn't have happened had we stayed out of WWI), Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf war I. But I find it hard to get past your duality in thinking. So I fail to see the relevence of your comment. Perhaps you should reread the original post.

Universal abortion and homosexuality are not topics that is allowed in this forum. And again, it has nothing to do with the question of the original post.
 
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Poke

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romanov said:
Iran= 26 plus years of on and off, direct and indirect negotiations

I hope you're not thinking that Bush is honest about negotiations with Iran.

In what way did he cooperate?

Hasn't this been hashed to death? Saddam destroyed his WMDs and didn't block inspections.

Quote Bush's lie(s)

Quote anything Bush has said.

He who is without sin.....

Jesus's intention was not to overturn the Death Penalty for adultery, but was to avoid the Pharisee's trap.

A judge hanged a mentally ill 16 year old rape victim and their only crime is crib notes?

If she was mentally ill, then maybe we can count it as a mercy killing, in addition to capital punishment.

Iran is peaceful, that's why they need nuclear arms as opposed to prisons for rapists.

Do you really think Iran would use nukes for anything other than self-defense? Besides, Iran isn't trying to build nukes.

I find it odd that you call us warmongering. We go to Somalia to feed starving people. We go to Bosnia to defend Muslims of all things. We go to Cosovo as a kind of peace keeping force to stop a supposed genocide. We go to Kuwait to kick out an invader. And we're war mongerers.

Somalia might be the only US invasion in history where killing people was not part of the mission. But, invading another country is still an act of war.

In Yugoslavia, the US sided with terrorists against the legitimate government of Yugoslavia, over trumped up charges of genocide.

In Kuwait, Saddam had reason to invade, and the US told him it was OK. I think this reflects a nation trying to generate excuses for war.
 
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Poke

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atlasshrugged said:
The execution of a 16 year old mentally ill rape victim is abhorant. I don't care where it happened.

Apparently the court found her to be a partner in crime, not a rape victim. Anyway, this whole criticsm of Iran for following OT teachings, while ignoring the massive immorality in America (e.g. legitimized abortion and homosexuality) is purely Politically Correct, not Christian.
 
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illudium_phosdex

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Poke said:
Apparently the court found her to be a partner in crime, not a rape victim. Anyway, this whole criticsm of Iran for following OT teachings, while ignoring the massive immorality in America (e.g. legitimized abortion and homosexuality) is purely Politically Correct, not Christian.

Did you see where I said I don't care where it happens. If it happened right here in the States, it would be just as wrong. And as to the particular social issues you mentioned, we are not allowed to discuss these issues in this forum. See rule 3.5. The only thing I will say about those things is that the people who support them will be judged by God one day and justice will be served.

But we are not talking about America right now, we are talking about Iran. Stick to the topic.
 
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gwynedd1

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I agree that Sharia law is not Christian.
Hoever you forgot this set of laws and one in particular.

Avodah zarah
- Do not worship false gods/idols.

Noahide law number 3.

Christians would be in violation of Idol worship and be executed. You will also warn about this Jewish law I hope.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Noahide_Laws
 
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Easystreet

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CRUELTY OF SHARIA LAW

PENALTIES imposed by Iran's religious mullahs include:

THEF T: Amputation of hands or feet for persistent offenders.

ADULTERY: Death by stoning.

UNMARRIED SEX: 100 lashes.

CONVERSION TO RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM: Death.

SODOMY: Death for adults, 74 lashes for consenting child.

LESBIANISM: 100 lashes, or on the fourth occasion death.

HOMOSEXUAL KISS: 60 lashes.

RUBBING ANOTHER MAN'S THIGHS OR BUTTOCKS: 99 lashes - on 4th occasion, death.

Thanks for posting the above Islamic Laws. I have quoted them with emphasis.

Notice how demonic it is with a mixture of good. Satan is slick. Islam is Satan's main religion.

Who is Islam's god? Satan.
 
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GordonSlocum said:
Notice how demonic it is with a mixture of good. Satan is slick. Islam is Satan's main religion.

The Koran's criminal laws are based on the laws found in Hebrew scriptures. The Koran does not say that people who leave Islam should be punished. But, yes, Iran and US allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan forbid conversion from Islam. But, other Islamic countries allow conversion from Islam.

Who is Islam's god? Satan.

What a coincidence. That guy is Judaism's god, as well.
 
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gwynedd1

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GordonSlocum said:
Notice how demonic it is with a mixture of good. Satan is slick. Islam is Satan's main religion.

Who is Islam's god? Satan.

Slick? Islam is in a public relations meltdown and you call that slick? Islam is like Satanism for dummies. Most of Islam is of a simple and poor people. I am rather bemused at such a statement.

The IMF and the Worldbank are the ones appearing as angel's of light(funding gulags in Uganada). That is slick.


http://www.ssn.flinders.edu.au/global/africa/marcroberts/body.htm
 
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romanov

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Poke said:
Apparently the court found her to be a partner in crime, not a rape victim.

Sun Mirror said:
Rezaii told her she would hang for her "sharp tongue" and that he would put the noose around her neck himself. It became a personal crusade as he travelled to Tehran and convinced the Supreme Court to uphold his verdict.

According to the article, the judge apparently hung her for a "sharp tongue" not that she was a fornicator.

Poke said:
Anyway, this whole criticsm of Iran for following OT teachings,

Where in the OT does it say to stone someone who has a sharp toungue?

Poke said:
while ignoring the massive immorality in America (e.g. legitimized abortion and homosexuality) is purely Politically Correct, not Christian.

Why do you keep bringing up these two subjects? 1. It's not allowed in this thread. 2. You are not answering the question that I asked you.

So here's the question again. Try to stay on target please. Are you saying it is ok to kill someone who is mentally ill because that would be a mercy killing?

Just to clarify and remind you exactly what you said, I am reposting your quote.

Poke said:
If she was mentally ill, then maybe we can count it as a mercy killing, in addition to capital punishment.
 
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romanov

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gwynedd1 said:
Slick? Islam is in a public relations meltdown and you call that slick? Islam is like Satanism for dummies. Most of Islam is of a simple and poor people. I am rather bemused at such a statement.

The IMF and the Worldbank are the ones appearing as angel's of light(funding gulags in Uganada). That is slick.

Totally off subject here. You are not answering the question. I'm sure there is some thread somewhere that you can discuss this but that's not the issue here.

Let me put the question more susinctly. The article is an example of many incidences that I have found that show Iran and other Islamic states aren't capable of showing empathy, understanding or mercy. Understanding of another person's standpoint is key in negotiating a consensus. Mercy is also necessary because even though you have the power to completely obliterate your enemy, you choose instead to work towards common ground and internalise any angst you may feel toward your enemy. So would there be any point in trying to negotiate with people who do the brutal things that are done under Sharia law.
 
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D

Driver

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Probably a better question is it possible to negotiate with the Bush Administration.

Arrogance and pride often lead to defeat in warfare. Look at history. Jesus said "all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword".

Don't underestimate the Iranians. They are equipped with Russian made Sunburn anti-ship missiles, in which the US has no defense becasue of its technology. They could sink our ships and easily trap the US fleet that is in the Persian Gulf with its narrow 2-mile opening. And the Chinese and Russians would likely help them, if the US and Israel attacked Iran.

A just and peaceful settlement is far better than war.
 
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Driver said:
Probably a better question is it possible to negotiate with the Bush Administration.

Bush demands that you totally cave, as a condition to even start negotiations. Bush is demanding that Iran give up their legal rights before he'll negotiate. That, of course, is a ploy to refuse to negotiate in the first place. And, even if Iran gave up their legal rights to have a neclear energy program, Bush would still refuse to negotiate, saying that Iran is lying (ala when liar Bush said Saddam was hiding WMDs).

Bush openly refuses to negotiate, so it's kind of stupid for anyone to blame Iran for refusing to negotiate.

Arrogance and pride often lead to defeat in warfare. Look at history. Jesus said "he who lives by the sword shall perish with the sword".

Yes, and at this rate, it's just a matter of time before Israel is destroyed. That will close a dark chapter in world history and send the zionists back to the drawing board.

Don't underestimate the Iranians. They are equipped with Russian made Sunburn anti-ship missiles, in which the US has no defense becasue of its technology. They could sink our ships and easily trap the US fleet that is in the Persian Gulf with its narrow 2-mile opening. And the Chinese and Russians would likely help them, if the US and Israel attacked Iran.

The US ships have defenses. And, Iran would probably hold back, not wanting to p*ss-off the school yard bully. The US isn't going to attack Iran because the US has no international support to do so, and the US has its hands full with Iraq. At most, the US/Israel axis of evil would bomb just a few select targets in Iran to try to intimidate Iran. But, even that would be costly to the US just in terms of the oil price spike that would result.

A just and peaceful settlement is far better than war.

Not to someone who belongs to the father of lies, who was a murderer from the beginning.
 
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