Is it possible for me to lose my salvation by accident?

[grandvizier1006]

For background, I was raised in a Presbyterian church. So I grew up with the understanding that salvation could not be lost, and that God's grace covered our sins, provided, of course, that we didn't keep on sinning. And if someone seemed to be a Christian but later fell away, then there were simply never Christians to begin with. I'm not opposed to that theory.

Now, though, I'm in a Wesleyan church with the opposite sort of theology, which states that you CAN lose your salvation, essentially the opposite of the Calvinist doctrine on this matter. I made a friend in this church who's quite educated, and he very eloquently espoused the belief that you can, of course, lose your salvation, but in what I guess is typical Wesleyan fashion he seemed unconcerned about that ever realistically happening. It just seems like he's promoting a works-based salvation in a very roundabout way. I don't think he's a heretic, he just has very specific theological ideas and I honestly don't want to agree with or adopt some of them. Except, I haven't studied the Bible nearly as much as he has, so I don't really have any ground to stand on.

In my limited observations, Reformed theology interprets from plain, literal readings of Scripture and Wesleyans try and look for whatever the original Hebrew and Greek "actually" says, which always seems to be the slightly different from what was ever interpreted. I don't know what to believe. But personally, and at the risk of sounding selfish and shallow, I like the concept of eternal security much better. I have OCD, an anxiety disorder. The idea of losing my salvation because of looking at too much porn or being too grouchy is the kind of thing that could give me tons of mental anguish and sleepless nights after I feel guilty about doing either of those things (I'm trying not to do those things anymore, of course, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at). So I like being able to believe in something that doesn't give me anxiety, and many types of Christian beliefs tend to do that if I let those kinds of thoughts dominate my mind. I suppose I'd adopt Calvinism if I liked or agreed with the rest of the tenets, but I don't, and the same goes for Wesleyan theology.

I know that's a very shallow way to think of theology. I know that that's terrible. But if I were to approach either a Calvinist or Wesleyan, I'd get an answer that's basically "Well, it's in the Bible, so too bad!" because both sides are convinced of their truth, what they either came to believe, or worse, were simply taught.

I hate thinking that way about my fellow Christians, but I have a cynical streak sometimes that isn't good for me. Any denominations' explanations or answers are welcome. Although, like I said before any circular reasoning that just amounts to "Well, you may find it upsetting, but it's what Scripture/tradition/consensus teaches, so too bad!" isn't helpful, because I've recently experienced BOTH sides saying that. For better or for worse, I'm living in a time where I can pick and choose and I'd rather not do that for fear of getting it wrong.

To be honest, I'd rather not have free will to "choose" to follow God at all. I'd rather He tell me what to do. I think I'd still love Him just as much as I do with "free will". I feel like I don't use mine wisely enough, and I never had a lot of time in life to really grasp that sort of thing and learn how to make good decisions.

 

[Sabertooth]

Is it possible for me to lose my salvation by accident?

That question is hotly debated.
My current understanding is that we can abandon our Salvation, but we cannot lose it.

As long as you

1. obey/follow Jesus &
2. confess/repent when He convicts you of an error,

you are in.

All Day Long, I've Been With Jesus

 

[The Liturgist]

For background, I was raised in a Presbyterian church. So I grew up with the understanding that salvation could not be lost, and that God's grace covered our sins, provided, of course, that we didn't keep on sinning. And if someone seemed to be a Christian but later fell away, then there were simply never Christians to begin with. I'm not opposed to that theory.

Now, though, I'm in a Wesleyan church with the opposite sort of theology, which states that you CAN lose your salvation, essentially the opposite of the Calvinist doctrine on this matter. I made a friend in this church who's quite educated, and he very eloquently espoused the belief that you can, of course, lose your salvation, but in what I guess is typical Wesleyan fashion he seemed unconcerned about that ever realistically happening. It just seems like he's promoting a works-based salvation in a very roundabout way. I don't think he's a heretic, he just has very specific theological ideas and I honestly don't want to agree with or adopt some of them. Except, I haven't studied the Bible nearly as much as he has, so I don't really have any ground to stand on.

In my limited observations, Reformed theology interprets from plain, literal readings of Scripture and Wesleyans try and look for whatever the original Hebrew and Greek "actually" says, which always seems to be the slightly different from what was ever interpreted. I don't know what to believe. But personally, and at the risk of sounding selfish and shallow, I like the concept of eternal security much better. I have OCD, an anxiety disorder. The idea of losing my salvation because of looking at too much porn or being too grouchy is the kind of thing that could give me tons of mental anguish and sleepless nights after I feel guilty about doing either of those things (I'm trying not to do those things anymore, of course, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at). So I like being able to believe in something that doesn't give me anxiety, and many types of Christian beliefs tend to do that if I let those kinds of thoughts dominate my mind. I suppose I'd adopt Calvinism if I liked or agreed with the rest of the tenets, but I don't, and the same goes for Wesleyan theology.

I know that's a very shallow way to think of theology. I know that that's terrible. But if I were to approach either a Calvinist or Wesleyan, I'd get an answer that's basically "Well, it's in the Bible, so too bad!" because both sides are convinced of their truth, what they either came to believe, or worse, were simply taught.

I hate thinking that way about my fellow Christians, but I have a cynical streak sometimes that isn't good for me. Any denominations' explanations or answers are welcome. Although, like I said before any circular reasoning that just amounts to "Well, you may find it upsetting, but it's what Scripture/tradition/consensus teaches, so too bad!" isn't helpful, because I've recently experienced BOTH sides saying that. For better or for worse, I'm living in a time where I can pick and choose and I'd rather not do that for fear of getting it wrong.

To be honest, I'd rather not have free will to "choose" to follow God at all. I'd rather He tell me what to do. I think I'd still love Him just as much as I do with "free will". I feel like I don't use mine wisely enough, and I never had a lot of time in life to really grasp that sort of thing and learn how to make good decisions.

I understand your pain, and I don’t think Wesleyan theology based on my understanding of it would say salvation can be lost inadvertently.

Now, you may or may not be aware of the historic connection between Wesleyan soteriology (salvation theology) and Eastern Orthodox soteriology, but from the latter there was a remark by a Russian monk which as I see comforting both from a Calvinistic and Wesleyan orientation: “Beware these two thoughts, and fear them: The first suggests 'You are a saint;' the other, 'You will not be saved.' Both come from the enemy, and there is no truth in them. Instead, think to yourself, 'I am a great sinner, but the Lord is merciful. He loves man with a great love, and will forgive me my sins.’”

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Salvation cannot be lost. If it were possible we are all stupid enough to would have lost it.

Once you are born of the Holy Spirit you are forvevr sealed as a child of God as Jesus sacrifice is perfect and it fully satisfied God's wrath for the sins of the believer.
When God saves someone that's it. He does not change His mind on this because He does not make mistakes.

If your Chuch teaches that salvation can be lost, run away, as no God's true Church teaches such lie.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @grandvizier1006, I don't believe that Wesleyan/Arminian theology teaches that someone can lose their salvation "by accident", so no worries there.

Most Arminian leaning churches/denominations teach that a true believer can ~intentionally~ reject their salvation (on this side of the grave), but VERY few teach that it can be lost (by sinning), like the Roman Catholics do.

Interestingly, I know FAR more Arminians who believe that their salvation is eternally secure than I do Calvinists because 1. there are so many Arminians who hold that POV these days (I suppose you might call them 4-point Arminians, or 1-point Calvinists ) and 2. because there are simply so many more Arminians alive today than there are Calvinists.

I have also run into those (like you have) who believe that salvation can be lost (at least "on paper", so to speak), but who, at the same time, never worry about it as a possibility personally.

Finally, no Arminian-based church (that I am aware of anyway) teaches that salvation can be lost or rejected once a believer is in Heaven or on the New Earth, which I find very interesting since their ability to freely reject the Lord Jesus and the salvation that they received from Him, at any point in their Christian walk here, seems to be so incredibly important to them

All that said, I don't believe that you will get a lot of push-back from most people in your Wesleyan Church if you continue to believe that you are, even now, eternally secure in Christ (which, as you know, is a POV that can be easily demonstrated from the Scriptures ).

God bless you!

--David

Hebrews 7
25 He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
.​

 

[grandvizier1006]

Hello @grandvizier1006, I don't believe that Wesleyan/Arminian theology teaches that someone can lose their salvation "by accident", so no worries there.

Most Arminian leaning churches/denominations teach that a true believer can ~intentionally~ reject their salvation (on this side of the grave), but VERY few teach that it can be lost (by sinning), like the Roman Catholics do.

Interestingly, I know FAR more Arminians who believe that their salvation is eternally secure than I do Calvinists because 1. there are so many Arminians who hold that POV these days (I suppose you might call them 4-point Arminians, or 1-point Calvinists ) and 2. because there are simply so many more Arminians alive today than there are Calvinists.

I have also run into those who, like you have, believe that salvation can be lost (at least "on paper", so to speak), but who, at the same time, never worry about it as a possibility personally.

Finally, no Arminian-based church (that I am aware of anyway) teaches that salvation can be lost or rejected once a believer is in Heaven or on the New Earth, which I find very interesting since their ability to freely reject the Lord Jesus and the salvation that they received from Him (at any point in the Christian walk here) seems to be so incredibly important to them for some reason

All that said, I don't believe that you will get a lot of push-back from most people in your Wesleyan Church if you continue to believe that you are, even now, eternally secure in Christ (which, as you know, is a POV that can be easily demonstrated from the Scriptures ).

God bless you!

--David

Hebrews 7
25 He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
.​

Thanks. I may have misjudged what Wesleyans believe. I don’t mean any offense. My friend’s writing style is a bit long-winded and complicated so I could have misunderstood him.

 

[Der Alte]

For background, I was raised in a Presbyterian church. So I grew up with the understanding that salvation could not be lost, and that God's grace covered our sins, provided, of course, that we didn't keep on sinning. And if someone seemed to be a Christian but later fell away, then there were simply never Christians to begin with. I'm not opposed to that theory.
Now, though, I'm in a Wesleyan church with the opposite sort of theology, which states that you CAN lose your salvation, essentially the opposite of the Calvinist doctrine on this matter. I made a friend in this church who's quite educated, and he very eloquently espoused the belief that you can, of course, lose your salvation, but in what I guess is typical Wesleyan fashion he seemed unconcerned about that ever realistically happening. It just seems like he's promoting a works-based salvation in a very roundabout way. I don't think he's a heretic, he just has very specific theological ideas and I honestly don't want to agree with or adopt some of them. Except, I haven't studied the Bible nearly as much as he has, so I don't really have any ground to stand on.
In my limited observations, Reformed theology interprets from plain, literal readings of Scripture and Wesleyans try and look for whatever the original Hebrew and Greek "actually" says, which always seems to be the slightly different from what was ever interpreted. I don't know what to believe. But personally, and at the risk of sounding selfish and shallow, I like the concept of eternal security much better. I have OCD, an anxiety disorder. The idea of losing my salvation because of looking at too much porn or being too grouchy is the kind of thing that could give me tons of mental anguish and sleepless nights after I feel guilty about doing either of those things (I'm trying not to do those things anymore, of course, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at). So I like being able to believe in something that doesn't give me anxiety, and many types of Christian beliefs tend to do that if I let those kinds of thoughts dominate my mind. I suppose I'd adopt Calvinism if I liked or agreed with the rest of the tenets, but I don't, and the same goes for Wesleyan theology.
I know that's a very shallow way to think of theology. I know that that's terrible. But if I were to approach either a Calvinist or Wesleyan, I'd get an answer that's basically "Well, it's in the Bible, so too bad!" because both sides are convinced of their truth, what they either came to believe, or worse, were simply taught.
I hate thinking that way about my fellow Christians, but I have a cynical streak sometimes that isn't good for me. Any denominations' explanations or answers are welcome. Although, like I said before any circular reasoning that just amounts to "Well, you may find it upsetting, but it's what Scripture/tradition/consensus teaches, so too bad!" isn't helpful, because I've recently experienced BOTH sides saying that. For better or for worse, I'm living in a time where I can pick and choose and I'd rather not do that for fear of getting it wrong.
To be honest, I'd rather not have free will to "choose" to follow God at all. I'd rather He tell me what to do. I think I'd still love Him just as much as I do with "free will". I feel like I don't use mine wisely enough, and I never had a lot of time in life to really grasp that sort of thing and learn how to make good decisions.

God does not make empty threats

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,[see vs, 29] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Heb 10:28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(Heb 10:29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(Heb 10:31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Vs, 26 does not refer to people who have only heard the truth.

​

 

[St_Worm2]

Thanks. I may have misjudged what Wesleyans believe. I don’t mean any offense. My friend’s writing style is a bit long-winded and complicated so I could have misunderstood him.

I'm part of the Evangelical Free Church of America, which now holds to a neutral position as a denomination concerning Arminian and Calvinist soteriologies. We've always had pastors and members from both theological camps (both at the denominational and at the local levels), but this new, neutral position has resulted in far fewer harsh debates and far more productive discussions between brothers and sisters in Christ who hold the opposite POV.

It's been a very nice thing both to see and to be a part of

--David

 

[RDKirk]

That question is hotly debated.
My current understanding is that we can abandon our Salvation, but we cannot lose it.

As long as you

1. obey/follow Jesus &
2. confess/repent when He convicts you of an error,

you are in.

​

The warnings in scripture are dire enough and repeated severely enough that the danger of deliberate abandonment must exist at some level. However, it also seems to be presented as an astounding concept that anyone should do so.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit surrenders a soul to his own foolishness without a fight.

 

[St_Worm2]

God does not make empty threats

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,[see vs, 29] there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(Heb 10:28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(Heb 10:29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(Heb 10:31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Vs, 26 does not refer to people who have only heard the truth.

That's true brother! Of course, He doesn't make empty promises to us either, or tell us things that are not true.

John 6
37 “ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 10
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give ETERNAL life to them, and they will NEVER perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
​

The fact that there is so much Biblical support for both sides, as well the fact that this debate has continued for millennia now, are two of the principal reasons that my denomination decided to take the (neutral) position that it has (see Post #8 above), and why I believe that others, like the SBC, have begun to follow in our footsteps.

God bless you!

--David

 

[Der Alte]

That's true brother! Of course, He doesn't make empty promises to us either, or tell us things that are not true.

John 6
37 “ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 10
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give ETERNAL life to them, and they will NEVER perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
The fact that there is so much Biblical support for both sides, as well the fact that this debate has continued for millennia now, are two of the principal reasons that my denomination decided to take the (neutral) position that it has (see Post #8 above), and why I believe that others, like the SBC, have begun to follow in our footsteps.​

God bless you!
--David

My memory is not as good as it was 3-4, or more, decades ago and I occasionally lose things. I look high and low but sometimes come up empty. That is losing.
The verses that I have posted, and others, show that one cannot lose their salvation in the same manner. One cannot wake up one day and their salvation can't be found.
It requires willful, deliberate, continuous action on the part of the individual. And when a sheep strays the Shepherd, leaves the 99, and diligently seeks to return the errant one to the flock.
Here is an OT passage which speaks to this.

(Jer 13:10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
(Jer 13:11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
***
(Jer 13:13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(Jer 13:14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

The Hebrew word "tabaq" translated "I caused to cleave" is in the completed sense. The most emphatic way it could be expressed in Hebrew. But because Israel would not obey vs. 14 "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

 

[toocoolblue]

I believe you can't lose your salvation because of Hebrews 6:4-6:6 and Luke 9:62.

These verses tell us that if one has 'lost' their salvation, it can never be regained.

Personally, I don't know anyone who got saved and then lived a perfectly blameless life from that point on. In fact, I don't know anyone who is without sin.

So, if you think you can lose your salvation, how do you know where the line is? Or worse, was?
You would have to be in a constant state of fear and doubt about the past..."Have I already crossed the line?!? Is it too late? There's no hope for me if I did." What a terrible way to live.

Nah... I prefer to believe that the everlasting life promised in John 3:16 isn't temporary. And even if I make a mistake, Jesus isn't going to give up on me.

 

[grandvizier1006]

My memory is not as good as it was 3-4, or more, decades ago and I occasionally lose things. I look high and low but sometimes come up empty. That is losing.
The verses that I have posted, and others, show that one cannot lose their salvation in the same manner. One cannot wake up one day and their salvation can't be found.
It requires willful, deliberate, continuous action on the part of the individual. And when a sheep strays the Shepherd, leaves the 99, and diligently seeks to return the errant one to the flock.
Here is an OT passage which speaks to this.

(Jer 13:10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
(Jer 13:11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
***
(Jer 13:13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(Jer 13:14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

The Hebrew word "tabaq" translated "I caused to cleave" is in the completed sense. The most emphatic way it could be expressed in Hebrew. But because Israel would not obey vs. 14 "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

It sounds to me like you and St. Worm agree on this issue. You're just choosing to emphasize verses that imply God will cut off those who turn their backs on Him even if they claimed to follow Him, whereas others emphasize that Jesus promises those that follow Him will not be snatched away. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is does that ever really happen? I don't like it being even a choice because I'd rather belong to Jesus permanently, not having any ability to resist, as Calvinism says with grace being irresistible and Wesleyan theology emphasizes freely choosing God.