Yes they understood Paul to not to be referring to Jesus' literal body, as I also understand. And I've given you scriptural reasons for such, of which you haven't bothered to responded, apparently not being all the familiar with handling the scriptures.
I have a question. Are we members of the body of Christ? I thought that was literal.
Christians are "members" of Christ's body of believers like Christians are members of a local congregation.I have a question. Are we members of the body of Christ? I thought that was literal.
1 Corinthians 12:12-14 I guess answers my question.
The "body of Christ" is a name for the Church. It stems from the ancient Jewish understanding of marriage. Jesus said that a man and woman who were married are "the same flesh". The Church is joined to Christ as a bride to a groom but it it isn't the same as the Eucharist.
Regardless, still doesn't answer the question as to why the practice is not idolatry. Doesn't speak to the OP. I have provided scriptural reasons in this thread as to why I (and a vast number of Christians) don't believe in the worship of the Eucharist, but all I've got in response from the Magisterial denominations is that it's just tradition. I don't believe it's what the scriptures taught.As early as 107 AD we see the unified Church believed the Eucharist was not a symbol but was the actual Body and Blood of Christ. And that the belief comes from the Apostles (since the writings on it come from those taught by the Apostles or by those taught by them). So we have one of St John The Apostles two known disciples directly confirming the belief in the Eucharist being the True body and Blood. We also have other contemporary Early Church Fathers confirming it.
So when did the early Church in total unity commit apostasy?
And if this is a belief consistent back to the early Church...then it is not Idolatry.
Because we don't believe in transubstantiation. We believe the communion bread is a symbol with the exception of Lutherans who go a bit beyond that, but not to the transubstantiation concept. We don't believe the eucharist is Christ as Orthodox and Catholics believe. And for that reason we don't believe in worshiping the Eucharist.Well, in order to truly eat Christs flesh, shouldn't we as protestants ascribe to transubstantiation?
Isaiah 44:13-20 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine. He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow. It is man’s fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire." From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?" He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, "Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"
So is it idolatry if one makes a wooden cross, for example, and assumes that the real presence of God is in the object, believing that God transubstantiates Himself into the wooden object, the wooden cross itself becoming God to that person, and so worships the wooden object which to them is God?
Is it idolatry only to the person who doesn't believe in the real presence of God in the object? Should the person who doesn't believe that God has transubstantiated Himself into the object consider the person who does believe such to be an idolator?
And does the Isaiah passage above apply?
That's an interesting point I was thinking of bringing up. In John 3 Jesus is likened to the bronze serpent.Idols has mislead many people in history.
When moses raised the bronze serpent, those who were biten by serpents looked at it and were cured, but people started worshipping it later.
The serpent represents the sin, but we would not be worthy to be resurrected by GOD If we die as sinners on the cross.... and without Christ we are always sinners. That's why our Lord Jesus died on the cross, who is ever blameless, but carried our sins(serpent) on the cross. And He was worthy to be resurrected first and lives forever for GOD.That's an interesting point I was thinking of bringing up. In John 3 Jesus is likened to the bronze serpent.
John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"
Would Catholics therefore worship the bronze serpent as the Israelites ended up doing, and the king ending up breaking it into pieces to stop such idolatry?
I would imagine Catholics/Orthodox would argue that the serpent was a symbol, a metaphor for Christ, but Christ didn't substantiate himself into the snake, making the snake him.
We Christian non-Eucharist worshipers view the communion bread much as the bronze serpent - a symbol, a shadow of Christ. and not the reality. And to me that puts us in the non-idolater category.
Regardless, still doesn't answer the question as to why the practice is not idolatry. Doesn't speak to the OP. I have provided scriptural reasons in this thread as to why I (and a vast number of Christians) don't believe in the worship of the Eucharist, but all I've got in response from the Magisterial denominations is that it's just tradition. I don't believe it's what the scriptures taught.
John 3 seems to indicate the Serpent represents Christ. The idea is that whoever was bitten by snakes and looks on the bronze serpent lives, thus liking to looking in Christ in faith for eternal life.The serpent represents the sin, but we would not be worthy to be resurrected by GOD If we die as sinners on the cross.... and without Christ we are always sinners. That's why our Lord Jesus died on the cross, who is ever blameless, but carried our sins(serpent) on the cross. And He was worthy to be resurrected first and lives forever for GOD.
How do you look upon this one?
1 Corinthians 11:29-30
"For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died".
Worshiping the Eucharist as God is not what Jesus decreed. Catholics and Orthodox have misconstrued what the communion service is about. Clearly I don't read scripture the same way you do.If it is Christ by Christ's decree it is not Idolatry.
Worshiping the Eucharist as God is not what Jesus decreed. Catholics and Orthodox have misconstrued what the communion service is about. Clearly I don't read scripture the same way you do.
I assume you realize that many Christians don't believe the Eucharist is God. So are we "real" Christians? And what does it matter?
All Ekklesia are, yes. It is true, literal, and in line with all Scripture, God's Plan, God's Purpose in Christ Jesus, and Salvation.I have a question. Are we members of the body of Christ? I thought that was literal.
There are NO, zero, zip, zilch, not any idolators IN HEAVEN.Does it matter? If so, why?
All Ekklesia are, yes. It is true, literal, and in line with all Scripture, God's Plan, God's Purpose in Christ Jesus, and Salvation.
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