Is it Ever OK to Lie? Is It a Question Involving Priorities?

Ain't Zwinglian said:

Yeap all of those. Plus combining stealing with lying you get fraud and other financial crimes through deceit. Lying also goes well with adultery....as Fani Willis and Nathan Wade will testify to.

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So far you're aligning with deceptions intending to cause harm to another person. That's not a slippery slope, that's a pretty sharp precipice.

RDKirk said:

So far you're aligning with deceptions intending to cause harm to another person. That's not a slippery slope, that's a pretty sharp precipice.

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The flip side of my statements would be....we also must defend our neighbor, speak well of him and take his words and actions in the kindest possible way....ways we do it are acknowledging the gift of a good name, never betray our neighbors private thoughts or secrets, etc.

Ain't Zwinglian said:

The flip side of my statements would be....we also must defend our neighbor, speak well of him and take his words and actions in the kindest possible way....ways we do it are acknowledging the gift of a good name, never betray our neighbors private thoughts or secrets, etc.

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Okay.

newton3005 said:

Perhaps it can be a matter of priorities depending on the circumstances. What can those circumstances be, if so?

The Old Testament has a lot to say about lies and fabrications, but in considering that it has God’s Commandment concerning lying, that Commandment may not be absolute under certain circumstances. For example, Exodus 20:16 says “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” It doesn’t say you shall not bear false witness against anyone, nor does it leave it at ‘You shall not bear false witness.’ Does that mean it’s OK to lie to anyone else?

Who is your neighbor? Jesus implies in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, in Luke 10:29-37 that your neighbor is someone you can help, regardless of where the neighbor and you are. Does that mean it is OK to lie to people that you are not in a position to help? Proverbs 12:22 says, “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.” But are lying lips only an abomination if you lie to your neighbor?

At first glance it seems you should be absolutely sure that the person you bear false witness about is not someone that needs your help. Well, it seems that if we were free to lie about others, it would completely destroy our system of justice. Does God intend that such a system be set up when you consider Romans 13:1? If God doesn’t lie, He wouldn’t approve of a government set up in his name, for justice or anything else, that is based on lies. Looked at from another angle, under God a government is in place to help people. If so, the people it helps are neighbors who should not be lied to.

Let’s look at priorities. Ordinarily, considering that the second great commandment of Jesus is to love your neighbor as you would yourself, you wouldn’t first expect your neighbor to harm you to the point where lying is the only way you can save the life of yours or your loved ones. Of course it’s always possible that a next-door neighbor of yours could go berserk because of things beyond his control, and he shows up at your door with a shotgun, asking you if you’ll give him all your money, say, after threatening you he’ll shoot you if you don’t. Maybe you’ll say that all your money is in the bank. He might say, ‘Let’s go to the bank,’ and you figure that you’ll have a better chance of his not harming you if he goes with you to the bank, who knows?

Or maybe in another situation you determine it’s necessary to lie to government officials in order to get money to feed your family. Well, does not 1 Timothy 5:8 say that if you don’t provide for your household, you’ll be considered a non-believer? Seems there may be some leeway as far as telling certain lies are concerned. Seems that as far as things like your family goes, providing for them might take priority over telling the truth.

What is our ultimate priority? Matthew 6:33 says to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and whatever you need will be added to you. How do you seek the Kingdom of God? By loving Him and your neighbor. How do you love God? You love Him by meeting His Expectations of you. One of his expectations is you have complete faith in Him. How do you love your neighbor? You care about them when necessary. Within this matrix, you consider any lies or truths you need to tell.

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Wow... Legalism galore there, let's look at the whole:

Lying is a sin. Jesus refers to Satan as the father of lies.

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" John 8:44

Everyone who crosses your path is your neighbor. Read the story of the Samaritan. Luke 10:25-37

Remember we follow the law in Spirit, and lying to get a welfare check is an absolute sin as well as a crime. Go to a food pantry ask for help.

If you would like an old testament example of bearing false witness read 1 Kings 21:1-28 it was perfect strangers who bore false witness against Naboth on behalf of someone else.

We just don't lie. We don't. Not if we are in Christ.

Hazelelponi said:

Wow... Legalism galore there, let's look at the whole:

Lying is a sin. Jesus refers to Satan as the father of lies.

"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" John 8:44

Everyone who crosses your path is your neighbor. Read the story of the Samaritan. Luke 10:25-37

Remember we follow the law in Spirit, and lying to get a welfare check is an absolute sin as well as a crime. Go to a food pantry ask for help.

If you would like an old testament example of bearing false witness read 1 Kings 21:1-28 it was perfect strangers who bore false witness against Naboth on behalf of someone else.

We just don't lie. We don't. Not if we are in Christ.

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Well I guess according to you I'm not in Christ as I'd rather not have my wife go into a meltdown.
Guess I should just tell here that her "Friends" that left without saying goodbye weren't actually there at all at it's all in her head.
Oh ad keep letting her know that her Mom is still dead so she can cry again over that loss.

Yea, I'd rather not.

I have aspergers, and usually can-t lie, last driver license test was cancelled because i did not lie of what medication i was taking.
Sometimes i would just ignore a person, and leave hanging on a question or somethihng i prefer to appear rude than to lie.

pgp_protector said:

Well I guess according to you I'm not in Christ as I'd rather not have my wife go into a meltdown.
Guess I should just tell here that her "Friends" that left without saying goodbye weren't actually there at all at it's all in her head.
Oh ad keep letting her know that her Mom is still dead so she can cry again over that loss.

Yea, I'd rather not.

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Usually when people lie in most ordinary situations it's because it's easier and the truth seems socially mean.

1.) Betty at church is wearing the ugliest shirt you've ever seen but you compliment her outfit anyway and tell her how nice she looks... even though it's not true.

2) Betty at church is wearing the ugliest shirt you've ever seen, so instead of proclaiming a harsh truth, you instead compliment her necklace or hair that is nice, which is true..

Most people do solution #1 and don't even think of or consider solution #2. Living in Christ is about making a habit out of solution #2 responses instead of reflexively lying.

As far as someone living in end stage Alzheimer's I'm pretty sure God knows your doing your best, but perhaps you might like to try, even with your wife, looking for more solution #2 responses when you can.

It may not always be possible, but it may be possible more than you think.

If her "friends" left her without saying goodbye, perhaps mention that it might be age making her friends rude... It's not untrue if she's got Alzheimer's, your just not mentioning whose age your thinking of.

As far as providing for your family there's times where for reasons beyond your control you can't. For instance your caring for your ailing wife, being too old to work etc.

The person worse than an unbeliever for not providing is the guy who's young and healthy and just plain lazy and doesn't want to; not someone who is unable for some reason beyond their ability and control.

As far as welfare it's usually quite difficult. There's times you desperately need it and don't qualify for some stupid loophole reason.

My husband and I had a time we would have been better off not being married - we once actually considered a divorce so I could get some medical coverage I needed that once.

But we powered through on the truth and what was right. And it's not easy.

It's not.

If you're having real struggles, you'll need to go to more than one food pantry a month... If you can find 3 or 4 food pantries a month that you can go to, then go to all of them when they are open.

If you hit up one food pantry a week it's the most helpful if your not getting enough for food.

Also, enlist help from people in your church. Let's people know your struggling. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Make sure you are in meals on wheels also if you can get it.

And find out which churches give away day old bread. Grocery stores give it to churches that help the poor. It's not a bad thing to stop and grab a loaf of bread etc sometimes, even if it's not your church.

You can skip having to purchase any essentials you pick up at the food pantry.

Also, the less money you have to eat the more you have to pay attention to the nutritional value of your food.

Tomato soup is often the healthiest canned soup you can buy plus it's inexpensive.

Peanut butter is actually healthy and good for you. Plus it's cheap as well as versatile.

Things like chicken livers are cheap, have a high nutritional value and you can easily season them and make a nice meal.

Fresh bananas and oatmeal also have a high nutritional value and are still inexpensive.

You need to eat more of course and the .58 cent box of macaroni and cheese is still essential but it's good to keep in mind that if your careful you can stay healthy still.

P.S. when salad becomes a special treat, when you do have some buy fresh baby spinach to use as your leafy green instead of lettuce, it has the best nutritional values.

Ain't Zwinglian said:

One's person clarity is a anothers murkiness. Sounds to me like the Divine Wink Theory....you get an exemption from God for transgressing the Eighth Commandment in protecting innocent human life.

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Do you see God's kindness to the midwives in giving them families of their own because they "did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live". . .answering Pharoah, "the Hebrew women give birth before the midwives arrive," as a "divine wink" (Ex 1:17-21)?

Do you see Jesus' lying about his going up to Jerusalem in order to preserve (his) innocent human life until his "time had come" (Jn 7:6) as a "divine wink?" (Jn 7:6-10, "However")

Do you see the Biblical testimony to Rahab's righteousness in lying to preserve innocent human life as a "divine wink"(Jas 2:25)?

I don't see all-holy God as in the "divine-wink" business. . .I see it as God's approval, because it is in agreement with preservation of innocent human life trumping all his other morals.

Clare73 said:

God is not in the slippery-slope business of a "lesser-of-two-evils" morality, with fallen man making the call.

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It takes a great amount of Christian maturity to make a "lesser-of-two-evils" morality call. 1) A knowledge of the 10 C's 2) knowledge of vertical and/or horizontal "greater" sins 3) understanding of repentance 4) understanding of all of fallen taint of sin on all decisions Christians make 5) understanding of God's forgiveness through Christ.

Trying to apprehend God's approval in ethical decision making is just "willy-nilly."

For example take the death of later term abortionist George Tiller [the killer]. Scott Roeder, coming from a nominal Christian background, believed it was justifiable homicide to murder him to preserve innocent lives of the unborn.

God is not in the slippery-slope business of a "willy-nilly" morality, with fallen man making the call.

Ain't Zwinglian said:

It takes a great amount of Christian maturity to make a "lesser-of-two-evils" morality call. 1) A knowledge of the 10 C's 2) knowledge of vertical and/or horizontal "greater" sins 3) understanding of repentance 4) understanding of all of fallen taint of sin on all decisions Christians make 5) understanding of God's forgiveness through Christ.
Trying to apprehend God's approval in ethical decision making is just "willy-nilly."

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I see Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25 as authoritative, for preservation of innocent human life trumping all moral laws, rather than "willy-nilly."

Ain't Zwinglian said:

For example take the death of later term abortionist George Tiller [the killer]. Scott Roeder, coming from a nominal Christian background, believed it was justifiable homicide to murder him to preserve innocent lives of the unborn.

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Relevance?

Was Tiller actually murdering unborn children so that their mothers or fathers were justified in killing him?
We don't kill people for what they think.
It's not an punishable offense until the act of murder is actually engaged.

I see "willy-nilly" in the arguments objecting to "preservation of innocent human life trumping all morals," rather than in its establishment.

Clare73 said:

How are the two identical?

Was Tiller actually murdering unborn children so that their mothers or fathers were justified in killing him?
It's not an punishable offense until the act of murder is actually engaged.

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Do a search on George Tiller (the killer). He was a member of the LCMS until he started to perform abortions and then became the pre-eminent late term abortionist in Kansas. He was place under church discipline, but being unrepentant was excommunicated. He then joined the ELCA with no problems. He was murdered by Roeder in church as an usher around 15 years ago. He died unrepentant and a multi-millionaire from his abortions. He is somewhat of a patron saint for "pro death" christians in liberal mainline denominations.

Ain't Zwinglian said:

Do a search on George Tiller (the killer). He was a member of the LCMS until he started to perform abortions and then became the pre-eminent late term abortionist in Kansas. He was place under church discipline, but being unrepentant was excommunicated. He then joined the ELCA with no problems. He was murdered by Roeder in church as an usher around 15 years ago. He died unrepentant and a multi-millionaire from his abortions. He is somewhat of a patron saint for "pro death" christians in liberal mainline denominations.

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Tiller's murder was justifiable under God's law, but not under the laws of this land, and when one disobeys the law of the land, one gets to suffer its consequences.

newton3005 said:

Perhaps it can be a matter of priorities depending on the circumstances. What can those circumstances be, if so?

The Old Testament has a lot to say about lies and fabrications, but in considering that it has God’s Commandment concerning lying, that Commandment may not be absolute under certain circumstances. For example, Exodus 20:16 says “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” It doesn’t say you shall not bear false witness against anyone, nor does it leave it at ‘You shall not bear false witness.’ Does that mean it’s OK to lie to anyone else?

Who is your neighbor? Jesus implies in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, in Luke 10:29-37 that your neighbor is someone you can help, regardless of where the neighbor and you are. Does that mean it is OK to lie to people that you are not in a position to help? Proverbs 12:22 says, “Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.” But are lying lips only an abomination if you lie to your neighbor?

At first glance it seems you should be absolutely sure that the person you bear false witness about is not someone that needs your help. Well, it seems that if we were free to lie about others, it would completely destroy our system of justice. Does God intend that such a system be set up when you consider Romans 13:1? If God doesn’t lie, He wouldn’t approve of a government set up in his name, for justice or anything else, that is based on lies. Looked at from another angle, under God a government is in place to help people. If so, the people it helps are neighbors who should not be lied to.

Let’s look at priorities. Ordinarily, considering that the second great commandment of Jesus is to love your neighbor as you would yourself, you wouldn’t first expect your neighbor to harm you to the point where lying is the only way you can save the life of yours or your loved ones. Of course it’s always possible that a next-door neighbor of yours could go berserk because of things beyond his control, and he shows up at your door with a shotgun, asking you if you’ll give him all your money, say, after threatening you he’ll shoot you if you don’t. Maybe you’ll say that all your money is in the bank. He might say, ‘Let’s go to the bank,’ and you figure that you’ll have a better chance of his not harming you if he goes with you to the bank, who knows?

Or maybe in another situation you determine it’s necessary to lie to government officials in order to get money to feed your family. Well, does not 1 Timothy 5:8 say that if you don’t provide for your household, you’ll be considered a non-believer? Seems there may be some leeway as far as telling certain lies are concerned. Seems that as far as things like your family goes, providing for them might take priority over telling the truth.

What is our ultimate priority? Matthew 6:33 says to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and whatever you need will be added to you. How do you seek the Kingdom of God? By loving Him and your neighbor. How do you love God? You love Him by meeting His Expectations of you. One of his expectations is you have complete faith in Him. How do you love your neighbor? You care about them when necessary. Within this matrix, you consider any lies or truths you need to tell.

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I can tell you what not to do!!!

Don't make up storylines that force you to appear to have to lie to live, not be murdered, etc.

If you are going to lie, don't get all greasy grace on the concept. Acknowledge it as sin and repent. Don't try to figure out how or when it might be OK so that you can pretend you did not sin. Because it is never OK to lie. Lying is the opposite of truth.

If we can lie and be approved by God, then God can lie to us. I accept neither as a possibility. No one should!

Peace and Blessings

Clare73 said:

The highest moral law, which trumps all moral law, including lying, is the preservation of innocent human life.
It is not immoral to lie to save innocent human life.

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Please:

1. What and where is this 'highest moral law' you claim? What is it's origin?
2. How does it erase other what?... High but not as high moral laws?
3. Who is innocent?
4. Innocent implies perfect. Death is no fear to the perfect.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

Please:

1. What and where is this 'highest moral law' you claim? What is it's origin?
2. How does it erase other what?... High but not as high moral laws?
3. Who is innocent?
4. Innocent implies perfect. Death is no fear to the perfect.

Peace and Blessings

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Review the thread for this information.

God:

And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

Also God:

And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

TPop said:

it is never OK to lie.

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God disagrees with you.

TPop said:

Lying is the opposite of truth.

If we can lie and be approved by God,

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See Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25.

TPop said:

then God can lie to us.

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Did God lie to Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23), did Jesus lie to the apostles (Jn 7:6-10)?

Clare73 said:

Good point, not all untruth makes one a guilty liar.

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Even the heathen will tell truths or lies to protect.
Cori Tenboom is not scripture.
We are called to be more than heathens.

Peace and Blessings.

Clare73 said:

God disagrees with you.

See Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25.

Did God lie to Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23), did Jesus lie to the apostles (Jn 7:6-10)?

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So you are actually saying "thus saith the lord." Wow.

You are to be better. More than the heathen.

Peace and Blessings

pgp_protector said:

Well I guess according to you I'm not in Christ as I'd rather not have my wife go into a meltdown.
Guess I should just tell here that her "Friends" that left without saying goodbye weren't actually there at all at it's all in her head.
Oh ad keep letting her know that her Mom is still dead so she can cry again over that loss.

Yea, I'd rather not.

Click to expand...

Maybe you need better coping techniques?

Peace and Blessings