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Is Intelligibility of the Quantum Universe an evidence of God's Existence?

stevevw

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[block quotes removed]

That's what they were trying to describe with their math and often why they invented it.
Yes but I am asking was the invention of maths a reflection of what was inherent in what they were looking at. Were those relationships reflected in nature.
The topic of the thread is a claim about the intelligibility of physics, not of math. Have you viewed the OP video?
Isn't maths tied with physics. Anyway that is why I pointed out that logic would have it that if maths helps pave the way for theorectical physics that it would work all the way down to the bottom. To the void.

But this seems to also be where the maths gets a little wobbly. Logic and physical laws breakdown.

So the maths and the theory have to introduce new dimensions to accommodate the quantum world. Perhaps some sort of maths can be created. Look at string theory.

But then if you notice at the end of the video they came to the same conclusion as Lennox. The fact that maths works so well and is able to reveal deeper insights into reality points to a creator God who wanted us to understand His greatness by giving us the mind to discover this about Him.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No it doesn't.

It points to the fact that humans are very good at coming up with accurate ways to describe reality.

To some extent, but they're not very good at sustaining constructive ways of using their descriptive knowledge of reality without further deviation, however accurate it may be.

But at center, I'm going to stick with Frank Close's closing question in his book, The Void (also in Nothing: A Very Short Introduction).


So, what do I mean? What I mean is that where the OP topic is concerned, the answer to the question is an interpretive enigma.
 
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Hans Blaster

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What "void"?
But this seems to also be where the maths gets a little wobbly. Logic and physical laws breakdown.
That's weird, because I remember QM and QFT being so mathematical that knowing about them leads some people to think physics is just math. (Add GR to the mix for this conclusion as well.)
So the maths and the theory have to introduce new dimensions to accommodate the quantum world. Perhaps some sort of maths can be created. Look at string theory.
I'd rather not.
It's she making the conclusion (it is an interview after all), and I watched this video 6 months ago. If she got to "Lennox" at the end then that would be the "strongest" argument she made, but it is overall a very weak argument that does not reflect well on the person making it. Have you read the first two pages of posts from February?
 
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stevevw

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What "void"?
You know, 'nothing, the quantum vacume.
That's weird, because I remember QM and QFT being so mathematical that knowing about them leads some people to think physics is just math. (Add GR to the mix for this conclusion as well.)
I mean just like classical physics needs new kinds of physics such as added dimensions so does the math. Theres room to manipulate and experiment to find the right formulas to move forward. Sometimes posing new problems or solving others.
Some of it. It seems regardless of the evidence or lack there of its coming down to a belief as to what a person will see and conclude. If a person is closed to possibilities beyond the physical parameters then that is all they will see.

If someone is open then they will appreciated the possibilities beyond.

If those who disagree with the inference of a designer are using the scientific evidence as the measure to dispute this possibility they are doing so by belief, an epistemic and metaphysical truth claim that there is only empiricle evidence. This is beyond science and more to do with belief.

Research shows that teleological belief in nature is a natural human tendency and we are born with. So its quite natural for humans to believe there is design behind what we see and it goes beyond logical and scientific explanations.

Is There a God-Shaped Hole at the Heart of Mathematics?​

 
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Hans Blaster

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You know, 'nothing, the quantum vacume.
Then say that. Don't use nonsense terms like "The Void".
I mean just like classical physics needs new kinds of physics such as added dimensions so does the math.
It doesn't. Please stop talking about physics (which will be the end of your participation on this thread, sorry). You clearly don't have any idea what you are talking about and are just stringing together ideas like a chatbot.
Theres room to manipulate and experiment to find the right formulas to move forward. Sometimes posing new problems or solving others.
This was meaningless.
Some of it.
Let's see if you understood it...
Nope. That's not what it was about, nor what the OP video was about.
You haven't demonstrated anything about your claim (or Erika's). Only *why* you are so eager to make it.
Templeton. LOL. Oh, wait you were serious. LOL.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I never saw Krull and I don't think I will today.

Don't be a fundamentalistic anti-intellectual with your science, Hans. We already have too many of those running around in other quadrants of society and human thought.

And by the way, I never saw Krull either. 1983 wasn't a big movie year for me.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I don't need your 50 minute video podcast. I like Neil and all, but I don't have time for it (and the title is uninteresting). And tempelton (which was all you quoted when you posted it, so might be somehow associated) is just a trojan horse to inject religion into science. Templeton -- we know who you are and we see you. (Though I did once have an idea to squeeze some cash from them and use it against their aims...)
 
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stevevw

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Then say that. Don't use nonsense terms like "The Void".
I am only going off commonly uses words.

AI Overview

In quantum physics, the "void" or "vacuum" is not truly empty, but rather a dynamic space teeming with energy and fleeting particles.

Void (astronomy)
It doesn't. Please stop talking about physics (which will be the end of your participation on this thread, sorry). You clearly don't have any idea what you are talking about and are just stringing together ideas like a chatbot.
In your opinion.
This was meaningless.
AI Overview

Mathematics, while often perceived as a realm of objective truth, is also a field where manipulation and invention play crucial roles in the development of new theories and concepts. Mathematicians create new mathematical structures and systems by abstracting from known concepts, inventing novel rules and axioms, and exploring the logical consequences of these constructions. This process of invention and manipulation allows for the exploration of possibilities beyond what is directly observable and can lead to breakthroughs in various scientific and technological fields.
Let's see if you understood it...

Nope. That's not what it was about, nor what the OP video was about.
How can it not be when you dispute the commentators conclusion that the maths and physics points to intelligence. Disputing the claim is itself a belief.

Do you have evidence that there is no intelligence behind the physical laws. Otherwise its a belief. Its making claims beyond the science.
You haven't demonstrated anything about your claim (or Erika's). Only *why* you are so eager to make it.
The same can be said as to why those are so eager to dispute this beyond what the science can verify. I am not trying to claim intelligence or design is a fact. Only that it ultimately comes down to a belief on boths sides.
Templeton. LOL. Oh, wait you were serious. LOL.
An ad hominem.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I am only going off commonly uses words.
The thread's topic is based on physics, not common words. Use physics terms properly.
AI Overview
I don't care what your AI said. Do you own work. An AI can't understand for you.
[AI output removed]

Void (astronomy)

Not related to QM at all.
In your opinion.
As an expert.
AI Overview
I don't care what your AI said. Do you own work. An AI can't understand for you.
Because I was disputing that *you* understood the claims made in the OP based on your responses. You clearly didn't.
The same can be said as to why those are so eager to dispute this beyond what the science can verify. I am not trying to claim intelligence or design is a fact. Only that it ultimately comes down to a belief on boths sides.
Which is not what my responses from February were about, nor my commentary on the video's claims. You are arguing against things I haven't been saying.
An ad hominem.
I know what Templeton is and what their (semi-hidden) goals are. I don't care what they publish.

Steve, a few things you need to know:

1. I discard all AI output posted to this site. (I also skip all bible quotes, unless the discussion is specifically about them.)
2. Links are not arguments. Links provide references and sources to back your argument.
3. I'm probably not going to watch any embedded videos either, with exceptions like the OP.

As to this thread, what you have posted is not tied to the claims made by the Purdue physics professor in the video in the OP. That video uses the regularity of physics as an argument for god. I made my assessment of her claim quite plainly in the first two pages of this thread. If you want to discuss those claims and counter claims, that is fine, but be sure you know what is being discussed first. (If you have a question, I am open to replying.)
 
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stevevw

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The thread's topic is based on physics, not common words. Use physics terms properly.
Is it just based on physics. Or are you determining what is or is not the OP. It seems to me the OP is posing a philosophical question and not just about physics ie the commentator says she thinks the math and physics point to God.

Why would the physics itself determine this question. We can all agree on the physics and how wonderful it is at explaining reality. But people will differ as to what that represents philosophically. How can science verify this aspect of epistemics.

Are you saying that methofdological naturalism is the only explanation for what we observe. If so then this is a belief rather than a scientific claim.
I don't care what your AI said. Do you own work. An AI can't understand for you.
Do my own work to do what. Prove God with mathmatics. No one is disputing that physics and maths describe very well what we observe. The question is whether those physical laws and maths are purely invented or point to fundementally to mind.

This is a philosophical question.

I mean we could go down the rabbit hole of whether the mind is just a physical phenomena or something beyond. Thats a big topic and its certainly not as though theres some knockdown evidence either way. The mind/body battle has been goind for 100 years or more.
Not related to QM at all.
Ok I thought it did.

Quantum nothingness might have birthed the Universe
The fact that matter may come out of what we would call “nothing” shows that the “nothing” of quantum physics is far from a complete void. Virtual particles appear and disappear like bubbles in a boiling soup. In the current view of quantum physics, the void bubbles continuously with the creation and destruction of matter particles.
As an expert.
An expert in philosophy. This is a philsophical question I think. That the math/physics points to a mind, intelligence or God. Or are we trying to verify the math and physics. I don't think it matters.

Its good your an expert so you can verify the physics and how well they describe oberservation. The better we can describe the observations the better we can understand how this points to a mind or some sort of creator of the physics.

Look at my signature lol. I linked that over 10 years ago and for me it is still coming true. If you disagree then thats ok. But that is your belief that it does not point to a creator. Not science. It is beyond what expertise in physics can claim. It is the physicist injecting themselves into the equation by a personal belief in metaphysical naturalism.
Because I was disputing that *you* understood the claims made in the OP based on your responses. You clearly didn't.
What claims. There was a claim that the math/physics points to intelliegnce behind it. That was a belief claim. The belief is based on the science. The expertise knowledge of the science. It seems at least for the commentator her expert knowledge gave her even more belief that there was a God than those with less knowledge.

The more she was able to understand the physics down to the quantum level the more she thought it reflected intelligence. That it made sense that God would make it such for us mere mortals to be able to get some insight into Gods all knowing and infinite mind.

That is why I jumped straight into the very bottom, the quantum vacumn. No one disputes the theory. Its the philosophical implications of this beyond the theory as to the greater scheme of reality and beyond that is the question.

How is knowing the physics or explaining observations with science accounting for ontological reality. A description is not prescriptive. A Lennox says a description of whats happening does create what is happening. This is a philosophical question.
How do you get to decide what counts or not lol. It seems to me this thread is more a philosophical one than a scientific one. Afterall the question is whether the math/physics points to a creator or not.

I am not sue what your point was. I made my point based on the OP. You came into my post from memory.
2. Links are not arguments. Links provide references and sources to back your argument.
I thought I had already made my arguements. I just made them again. This is a philosophical question and you seem to want to control things epistemically. Make it an empiricle question. Make it only about knowledge of physics and exclude philsophy.
3. I'm probably not going to watch any embedded videos either, with exceptions like the OP.
Thats quite dismissive. Almost a priori assumption that they are of no use. I though good critical thinking was looking at counter evidence and stuff you may feel is irrelevant. To actually see if it is or not rather than assuming.
Yeah I read those and some from others and I don't think they are any different to the usual objections. The idea that because we are here to marvel at how we are here somehow deminishes that we are here at all and could be here due to all those parameters being just right and designed that way from the start.

Its sort of assuming that its all self evident. That merely existing to contemplate negates the possibility that there was design in why we are here to do that. In fact it makes just as much sense and if not more to say that it should be expected that we see the world this way because God made us that way.

If there is a creator God who designed everything including us then it makes sense that He gave us the ability for his most intelligent and concious creatures to be able to know Him through what he has made.

But I think its still missing the point. Just making the claim is stepping beyond science. Its making a philosophical claim based on the observations. Science cannot claim there is no God or design.
 
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