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Is Infallibility Possible or Desirable?

Hmm

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A definition of faith I've always liked is that it's belief in the face of objective uncertainty. This implies that faith involves a level of trust rather than a sense of knowing. So we do the best we can with everything that's available to us - the Bible, church, books, the testimony of others and personal experience etc. - and then commit fully to that but still acknowledging some doubt and uncertainty. One benefit of this is that if we can tolerate doubt in ourselves we'll be more tolerant of others

OTOH, I can see why some people might say that, because we're talking about God and it's so important, our beliefs should be absolutely certain and so He would provide a way for that to be possible. As I understand it, this is why the Catholic church incorporates infallibility, under certain conditions and rarely used, and why others might assign infallibility to personal experiences of the Holy Spirit they believe they have.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
 

mlepfitjw

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Hello Hm.

It is true that we are banking on there being an afterlife even after this life.

People live by faith in trusting and believing in God that one day they will go on to heaven. All that Jesus Christ has taught me is to not to judge others, not to condemn others, also have your mind on heavenly things, and to love others (kindness, gentleness, forbearing, forgiving others and their faults, patience, peace, love, joy).

Sometimes I go and talk about Jesus Christ in chat rooms regardless if they desire to hear it or not. Sometimes they hate on Jesus Christ for that and not me. People are afraid that if you are going to share the bible with them or about Jesus Christ you are there to condemn them. God will condemn them though it will never be another person.

So maybe people desire to only live by faith, and they love others, God can work and in a person because of their faith without reading or knowing what the bible has to say though however people have heard at least a little bit that Jesus Christ pulled them into his ways.

There are people out here that are children of God, there are people out here that are Sons or Daughters of God.

You or me, do not know who they are, and only God will judge, and condemn them -(by the spirit)- if they have it.

For me it is to know the truth, and listen to the Lord Jesus Christ talk to me, and also it helps me from being caught up in the world for the most part, which only provides lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.
 
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Hmm

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Hello Hm.

It is true that we are banking on there being an afterlife even after this life.

People live by faith in trusting and believing in God that one day they will go on to heaven. All that Jesus Christ has taught me is to not to judge others, not to condemn others, also have your mind on heavenly things, and to love others (kindness, gentleness, forbearing, forgiving others and their faults, patience, peace, love, joy).

Sometimes I go and talk about Jesus Christ in chat rooms regardless if they desire to hear it or not. Sometimes they hate on Jesus Christ for that and not me. People are afraid that if you are going to share the bible with them or about Jesus Christ you are there to condemn them. God will condemn them though it will never be another person.

So maybe people desire to only live by faith, and they love others, God can work and in a person because of their faith without reading or knowing what the bible has to say though however people have heard at least a little bit that Jesus Christ pulled them into his ways.

There are people out here that are children of God, there are people out here that are Sons or Daughters of God.

You or me, do not know who they are, and only God will judge, and condemn them -(by the spirit)- if they have it.

For me it is to know the truth, and listen to the Lord Jesus Christ talk to me, and also it helps me from being caught up in the world for the most part, which only provides lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

Morning Agallagher. I should be more like you I think and talk more openly about my faith IRL. I don't much probably because I don't feel I'm a good example and I wouldn't want to put people off and embarrassment about talking about feelings etc. Most of my friends are secular and they know I'm a Christian but I only talk about it if it comes up, which is usually over a pint!
 
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mlepfitjw

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Morning Hmm, do not be like me, be like (be led by the holy spirit/spirit of Christ) Christ Jesus friend!

Let him work with you, get rooted in him and the more we will overflow with thankfulness, you also wont worry much about what people think about you but rather what God sees in your heart and thinks about you.

People are made into new creations from their own ways when they let God work with in them.

A problem for me sometimes is that at work I wanna please people, but really that is not what is about. It is about pleasing God not people.

Have you ever tired to manipulate someone in doing something for you and they believe you like them for what they have done? ( I have done it) That is something to be watchful for.

There are people who are like that, they will see what you can do for them but do nothing in return for you. God bless them, and pray for people like that you meet in your life but also realize we have the ability to say no, and yes.

Im to that point were ill tell someone no I will not do that, regardless if they do not really desire me to say no but desire me to say yes.

Just some extra thoughts that might be helpful.
 
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Hmm

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Im to that point were ill tell someone no I will not do that, regardless if they do not really desire me to say no but desire me to say yet.

It's important to be able to do that and it becomes easier with practice!

It sounds like you live out your faith very easily - am I correct in saying that?
 
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mlepfitjw

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Oh it is suffering, hmmm. It not easy. People reject you, or desire not listen to you sometimes, but we can also bring up the concern and care of the other individual instead and listen to them and their problems. Because you can not forget about the others either. It is tough actually.

Though my faith is firmly standing with God and Jesus Christ - with them being on the forefront of my mind daily, sometimes though - - I can get in to my fleshly ways of my own wants and desires, and it can be overbearing the world can be very exhausting sometimes when you fall back down into your flesh and instead of living (looking back towards the world, - pride of life, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh) by the spirit.

The other day was weak, and admitted weakness towards others - I woke up angry and frustrated, really desired not to go to work.

The Lord Jesus Christ understands that we are weak, for he to was tempted to do his own will but instead made the choice to do Gods will.

Great question, hmm. Thank you for asking.
 
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Mountainmike

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Start with the acceptance that all believe in infallibility.

If you believe the bible is infallible, then those authors under certain conditions were given the job of writing with Gods hand. Note it is not that they are infallible as people, it is very limited to specific tasks. Almost all Christians believe that they acted infallibly writing the gospels.

Now look at the New Testament : the power of “ bind and loose” means the power to give definitive judgement on disputes “ bound in heaven” which Jesus gave gto the apostles jointly , and Peter alone. That is the scriptural basis.

It is that power given to appointed successors of apostles in council that allows outing of heresy, a creed, AND the choice of New Testament content. Without the power you don’t have an infallible new testament!

It is finally that power given to successors of Peter and it is very very rarely used, and only ever to resolve disputes , when speaking ex cathedra after consultation with all the bishops. The pope is not deemed infallible in general teaching, or as a person, although very respected.

How do we know that the powers are inheritable? Because the Old Testament says so. Go back to the office of “ keys” in hezekiahs time. It was an office of equivalent to prime minister in charge whilst the king was away. It was passed on. That is the reference to “ keys of the kingdom”. We see apostolic succession in acts. The appointing of Judas’ successor.


A definition of faith I've always liked is that it's belief in the face of objective uncertainty. This implies that faith involves a level of trust rather than a sense of knowing. So we do the best we can with everything that's available to us - the Bible, church, books, the testimony of others and personal experience etc. - and then commit fully to that but still acknowledging some doubt and uncertainty. One benefit of this is that if we can tolerate doubt in ourselves we'll be more tolerant of others

OTOH, I can see why some people might say that, because we're talking about God and it's so important, our beliefs should be absolutely certain and so He would provide a way for that to be possible. As I understand it, this is why the Catholic church incorporates infallibility, under certain conditions and rarely used, and why others might assign infallibility to personal experiences of the Holy Spirit they believe they have.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
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Hmm

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Oh it is suffering, hmmm. It not easy. People reject you, or desire not listen to you sometimes, but we can also bring up the concern and care of the other individual instead and listen to them and their problems. Because you can not forget about the others either. It is tough actually.

Though my faith is firmly standing with God and Jesus Christ - with them being on the forefront of my mind daily, sometimes though - - I can get in to my fleshly ways of my own wants and desires, and it can be overbearing the world can be very exhausting sometimes when you fall back down into your flesh and instead of living (looking back towards the world, - pride of life, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh) by the spirit.

Great question, hmm. Thank you for asking.
.
I think it's quite rare for someone to put others at the forefront of your mind like you do. I'm sure everyone appreciates it even though they may not show it at the time.

Would you say your main struggle then is in trying to feel close and connected with God at times when you are overcome by desires and pride (as you mentioned)? Sorry, I'm not really Oprah Winfrey IRL!
 
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HTacianas

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A definition of faith I've always liked is that it's belief in the face of objective uncertainty. This implies that faith involves a level of trust rather than a sense of knowing. So we do the best we can with everything that's available to us - the Bible, church, books, the testimony of others and personal experience etc. - and then commit fully to that but still acknowledging some doubt and uncertainty. One benefit of this is that if we can tolerate doubt in ourselves we'll be more tolerant of others

OTOH, I can see why some people might say that, because we're talking about God and it's so important, our beliefs should be absolutely certain and so He would provide a way for that to be possible. As I understand it, this is why the Catholic church incorporates infallibility, under certain conditions and rarely used, and why others might assign infallibility to personal experiences of the Holy Spirit they believe they have.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Infallibility is possible, yes. Jesus said to his apostles:

Mat 18:19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

That is the foundation of the authority of an ecumenical council. A question came up in the early Church as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcised. Acts 8 tells the story of the apostles' decision that circumcision wasn't necessary for gentiles. "Two" of them agreed and it was done. But the meaning of it is "two out of three", meaning a majority vote. Two out of three of them agreed and it was done. That has been the tradition of Christianity since. And that decision was infallible.

The problem has been that over time splits and schisms have occurred, and even heresies, that have confused the decisions of the ecumenical councils.
 
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Mountainmike

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That doesn’t really address infallibility, it addresses the presence of Christ and petitions for help.

The scriptures that address definite judgement on doctrine or pronouncing true doctrine directly are:

“ bind and loose” which meant just that

“ stay true to tradition we taught you” by word of mouth and letter Implying both are true doctrine.

“ Moses chair” Jesus vouches for the truth of that spoken: the forerunner of ex cathedra

And

“ The pillar and foundation of truth is the church” which is the “ household of God” ie physical church. A place to find truth.

The statements on scripture “ all God breathed” address the effect of infallibility. Ie God working inerrantly through men in specific tasks.

Infallibility is possible, yes. Jesus said to his apostles:

Mat 18:19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

That is the foundation of the authority of an ecumenical council. A question came up in the early Church as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcised. Acts 8 tells the story of the apostles' decision that circumcision wasn't necessary for gentiles. "Two" of them agreed and it was done. But the meaning of it is "two out of three", meaning a majority vote. Two out of three of them agreed and it was done. That has been the tradition of Christianity since. And that decision was infallible.

The problem has been that over time splits and schisms have occurred, and even heresies, that have confused the decisions of the ecumenical councils.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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A definition of faith I've always liked is that it's belief in the face of objective uncertainty. This implies that faith involves a level of trust rather than a sense of knowing. So we do the best we can with everything that's available to us - the Bible, church, books, the testimony of others and personal experience etc. - and then commit fully to that but still acknowledging some doubt and uncertainty. One benefit of this is that if we can tolerate doubt in ourselves we'll be more tolerant of others

OTOH, I can see why some people might say that, because we're talking about God and it's so important, our beliefs should be absolutely certain and so He would provide a way for that to be possible. As I understand it, this is why the Catholic church incorporates infallibility, under certain conditions and rarely used, and why others might assign infallibility to personal experiences of the Holy Spirit they believe they have.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
In the end, we are all working in the flesh. Infallibility does not exist in this earthly realm. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the only one who walked this earth who can claim perfection. Through His Holy Spirit we can discern. Our Comforter, into all truth. Blessings.
 
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Mountainmike

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If infallibility does not exist, how were the gospels written infallibly? God works through men. You would not have a New Testament but for the choices made by men guided by God.

Jesus grants the power to “ bind and loose” in heaven. That is precisely what the phrase means. It is what it meant to first century jews.

That’s The problem with those reading scripture today and ignoring the historic meanings handed down by tradition and authority, Lack of context to understand it.

In the end, we are all working in the flesh. Infallibility does not exist in this earthly realm. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the only one who walked this earth who can claim perfection. Through His Holy Spirit we can discern. Our Comforter, into all truth. Blessings.
 
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Hmm

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If infallibility does not exist, how were the gospels written infallibly? God works through men.

I agree that God work through men but does this mean about the Bible that it was inspired by men but the words were chosen by men and that not every word perhaps was the best one? I believe God would have made sure that the main spiritual truths were written down as He had wanted though.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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If infallibility does not exist, how were the gospels written infallibly? God works through men. You would not have a New Testament but for the choices made by men guided by God.

Jesus grants the power to “ bind and loose” in heaven. That is precisely what the phrase means. It is what it meant to first century jews.

That’s The problem with those reading scripture today and ignoring the historic meanings handed down by tradition and authority, Lack of context to understand it.
Men are fallible. Holy Spirit filled men who documented the Gospels were guilded not by their own power but by the power of His Holy Spirit. Important distinction.
 
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mlepfitjw

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I think it's quite rare for someone to put others at the forefront of your mind like you do. I'm sure everyone appreciates it even though they may not show it at the time.

Would you say your main struggle then is in trying to feel close and connected with God at times when you are overcome by desires and pride (as you mentioned)? Sorry, I'm not really Oprah Winfrey IRL!

I believe that my faith brings me close to God everyday that is chosen to wake up and be thankful towards him, to pray for others and to love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul.

We are brought closer to God when we accept our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and trust and rely on their ways and being led by the spirit.

Our flesh can get caught up sometimes— and ultimate change is made by the Holy Spirit with in us along with the faith we have that is built up by the scriptures you read in the Bible that build us up in our spiritual body— the negatives of the flesh are still there but they start to fall away when we live make the choice to live by the spirit.

If you live by the spirit you will have joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, forbearance, love (1 Corinthians 13:4-7), and our flesh on the other hand is quite the opposite and we can live by it instead if you want. Hatred, bullying, gossiping about others, lying, manipulations, whatever else you can think of comes from the world and what is entails compared to the spirit.

You can learn about this in Galatians Chapter 5.

God bless and enjoy the rest of your day.
 
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A definition of faith I've always liked is that it's belief in the face of objective uncertainty. This implies that faith involves a level of trust rather than a sense of knowing. So we do the best we can with everything that's available to us - the Bible, church, books, the testimony of others and personal experience etc. - and then commit fully to that but still acknowledging some doubt and uncertainty. One benefit of this is that if we can tolerate doubt in ourselves we'll be more tolerant of others

OTOH, I can see why some people might say that, because we're talking about God and it's so important, our beliefs should be absolutely certain and so He would provide a way for that to be possible. As I understand it, this is why the Catholic church incorporates infallibility, under certain conditions and rarely used, and why others might assign infallibility to personal experiences of the Holy Spirit they believe they have.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I can't speak to the position of the Catholic church.

In terms of a subjective, individual disposition, I think infallibility (certainty?) is potentially unhealthy. I would say, rigorous self-honesty is a more desirable Christian disposition to have. In general, the unwillingness to admit one's fallibility is self-deceiving. I can be wrong about important matters. I have been wrong in the past, and will be wrong again. That doesn't mean I don't believe what I believe, it just means I know I could be wrong. Knowing my cognitive limits is part and parcel of knowing who I am as a creature and living appropriately to that ontological and epistemic status.

The other thing to mention is that there are levels of certainty (credulity). I believe some things more strongly than others. It seems appropriate that my credence level (i.e. strength of my belief) is going to be in some kind of relation to how I came by the belief in question. Did I come by that belief through observation? Reason? Did I have a dream? Did it come from reading the scriptures?

Then there is the community aspect. If I think I saw a bear in the field, and I am not sure (my credence level is mid-to-low), I can ask my friend standing beside me if she saw the bear as well. If she says, yes, my credence level will go up. If, no, then it should go down. If I insist I saw a bear without acknowledging she did not see it, even though she was looking at the same time, I am not being intellectually honest. I don't have to say I was wrong, but I need to admit I might be wrong.

These considerations are important when it comes to Christian belief, as well. We rely on three primary sources for our Christian belief: 1. scripture, 2. internal witness of the Holy Spirit, 3. witness of the community (which includes Christian practice and worship). If we try to claim the scriptures are infallible, we are not being intellectually honest. From whence comes the infallibility? If we say from the Holy Spirit, where did we learn that? We learned it from the scriptures, so we're back where we started. If we say the scriptures are infallible on their own, then we treat the scriptures as self-authenticating. The Reformers tended to think of the scriptures as self-authenticating (e.g. it was an interpretive principle for John Calvin). That was in part a reaction to the RC emphasis on tradition; nonetheless, it was a mistake.

The claim that the scriptures are self-authenticating hangs in mid-air, and offers no recourse to those who disagree. If a non-believer comes to me asking why I believe what I do, I'm not going to say because my belief is infallible. That kind of response disregards their legitimate lack of belief. I'm not going to say because the scriptures are self-authenticating. How could I show that to my interlocutor? I can say on the basis of the Holy Spirit, and that should be said, but really all I can do is share my own experience and extend the offer for them to come and see for themselves (John 1:39, 46).

I can't make sense of Christians claiming objective infallibility, and then not being able to show its source to someone who asks, so that upon seeing the source of infallibility the one who asks could not fail to come to believe. That's just not the reality. There are people who legitimately don't believe. Such a position is intellectually dishonest, and it has no evangelical use. Subjective infallibility, as an individual disposition, is just asking for an existential crisis the first time things go south and you no longer have pat answers. So, fallibilism coupled with faith. Embrace it. :)

Fallibilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
 
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Mountainmike

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Men are fallible. Holy Spirit filled men who documented the Gospels were guilded not by their own power but by the power of His Holy Spirit. Important distinction.
Which is the meaning of infallibility. It has become an emotive subject but we all agree it is true. You are just using different words,
God acting through men on specific tasks or decisions.

it should be repeated: it is not the person who is infallible: the pope doesn’t claim it except in an extremely rare circumstance, and it is not him that is infallible it is an actIon of his, God working through a person.

Hence the power to “ bind in heaven”. It’s also how your New Testament was decided by council. If the council didn’t have that power it would be a “ fallible collection of infallible books”
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Which is the meaning of infallibility. It has become an emotive subject but we all agree it is true. You are just using different words,
God acting through men on specific tasks or decisions.

it should be repeated: it is not the person who is infallible: the pope doesn’t claim it except in an extremely rare circumstance, and it is not him that is infallible it is an actIon of his, God working through a person.

Hence the power to “ bind in heaven”. It’s also how your New Testament was decided by council. If the council didn’t have that power it would be a “ fallible collection of infallible books”
Yes, and I am saying dogma is of men not the Holy Spirit.
 
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BobRyan

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A definition of faith I've always liked is that it's belief in the face of objective uncertainty. This implies that faith involves a level of trust rather than a sense of knowing. So we do the best we can with everything that's available to us - the Bible, church, books, the testimony of others and personal experience etc. - and then commit fully to that but still acknowledging some doubt and uncertainty. One benefit of this is that if we can tolerate doubt in ourselves we'll be more tolerant of others

OTOH, I can see why some people might say that, because we're talking about God and it's so important, our beliefs should be absolutely certain and so He would provide a way for that to be possible. As I understand it, this is why the Catholic church incorporates infallibility, under certain conditions and rarely used, and why others might assign infallibility to personal experiences of the Holy Spirit they believe they have.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

The Bible is infallible because its Author is infallible.

(Which is a great reason to believe the Creation account)
 
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Mountainmike

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Yes, and I am saying dogma is of men not the Holy Spirit.

Despite the bible saying it is!
Checkout the meaning of “ bind and loose in heaven” as it was understood by first century Jews,
 
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