Is he a christian?

[The Midge]

Someone walks in to your fellowship. He call your leaders hypocrites, ignores your rules and does his own thing then expounds contradictory teaching to your creeds.
The congregation ask "How dare he do this? Is he a believer? If he does these things how can he be a true Christian? May be he in league with the Devil!?!"
Some even go up to him and ask "Do you know the LORD as your personnel saviour?"
He then declares himself to be God's chosen one and performs several signs and wonders to prove it. By this time someone is calling the police to have him evicted for disturbing the peace. You decide to introduce yourself.
He answers "My name is Jesus, it's good to meet you too." When you shake his hand you realize it is scarred.

Someone on another thread didn't seem to realize I was a Christian. I won't claim to have been right but my views on a certain subject were contrary to theirs.They seemed to mistake me for an atheist.

I was wondering if Jesus turned up at our church would we recognize him? Or would his incite in to our true motives and his own ajenda mean we would reject him? Do our church lives match up to his teaching? Would we rate Jesus as a good Christian or would we brand him a heretic?

What would happen in your church? Please be as honest as you can.

 

[ZiSunka]

I find it hugely hard to believe that Christ would just walk into a church and start verbally abusing people. Christ never criticized outside of relationship. He never yelled without knowing what he was yelling about. He never called strangers hypocrites. He never made up new doctrines, he expounded on the old ones.

So, if this guy simply walked into my church and started screaming and handing out new creeds, I'd know for sure he wasn't Jesus.

 

[jesus_freak_for_life]

He did it to church leaders, the ones that WERE hypocrits. Jesus wasn't afraid to stand up for what He believed in.
I like this story.

 

[ZiSunka]

But it wasn't the first time he had ever entered the temple. He had been there many times before, knew how they did things, and they knew him, too.

It wasn't out of context or out of relationship like in the above story.

You can't believe everyone who says they are Jesus. Jesus won't be coming back that way. When he comes back, it will be with trumpets, as a king.

 

[jesus_freak_for_life]

we all know that. it was a story to get us to think.

 

[The Midge]

I have been reading through Luke for about a month. Time and time again Jesus confronts the Pharisees,the religous devout church goers of his day. He was not preaching a new creed he was simply showing how far off beam their interpretations of their scripture they were. I wonder if he woud do the same to church goers today?
On one occasion he was in conflict with his host before the meal had even started!

 

[Blessed-one]

um.... it's rather hard to imagine, though i'd find it strange if the guy started saying contradicting teachings...
i think my church may be a bit bewildered.

 

[ZiSunka]

Again, outside of a strong relationship, rebuke is really meanness.

I knew a guy who said he had the gift of "rebuking," meaning that he wanted to go around to churches and individuals telling them what they were doing wrong. All the while, this guy had some of the most obscene and shocking sins going on in his own life.

I was at a church once where a stranger started shouting at the congregation. The pastor was very nice and tried to talk to the woman and find out what she was upset about. She continued to yell out how everyone in the church was aligned with the devil and how we were all going to burn in hell. She obviously had some mental problems. The pastor dismissed services early so the woman could have some privacy while she wrestled with whatever was going on inside her. The paramedics were called, and the pastor and his wife went to the hospital with the woman just to be sure someone was going to be with her. The poor dear had no family, and the pastor's wife stayed with her all week while the doctors treated her for a psychotic break, and followed up with the woman for months afterward while she was institutionalized.

I think this is a more approriate response to any stranger who jumps up in a service and starts shouting.

 

[The Midge]

um.... it's rather hard to imagine, though i'd find it strange if the guy started saying contradicting teachings...
i think my church may be a bit bewildered.

His teachings would be internally consistent and consistent with scripture. However they could well show a particular church's or even your church's teaching or interpretations to be contradictory to scripture. There may be parralles between your Church and the Pharisees who considered their teaching and interpretation of the law to be spot on. Jesus showed it up for what it was. I'm sure the Pharasees were bewildered as well as enraged.


Lambslove:
Mathew 23. Did Jesus have a strong relatinship with the Pharisees and lawyers? Were his woes and denouncements meaness or the bare facts?

I thught that synagouges were places where anyone could discuss and have there say. hence the early church would meet and teach in them. Is there a similar space or occasion in our churches today when that can happen. Jesus was considered to be a Rabbi, if he was a itinerant teacher, would he in fact be a stranger even if he had some sort of reputation?

 

[ZiSunka]

Lambslove:
Mathew 23. Did Jesus have a strong relatinship with the Pharisees and lawyers? Were his woes and denouncements meaness or the bare facts?

Yes, he even had supper in their houses. He knew them very well. And his words were neither meanness nor bare facts. Jesus was expressing his emotions about their behaviors. He was sick of seeing them do the same unloving things over and over, while thinking they were in good standing with God. He had talked and talked to them in a normal tone of voice and raised his voice and used sharp words as a last resort, not a first contact.

I thught that synagouges were places where anyone could discuss and have there say. hence the early church would meet and teach in them. Is there a similar space or occasion in our churches today when that can happen. Jesus was considered to be a Rabbi, if he was a itinerant teacher, would he in fact be a stranger even if he had some sort of reputation?

They could meet and discuss anything, but not during the formal services. If you said this guy stood up at Bible study or at prayer meeting, or at board meeting, or almost any time other than during the formal services, then it would be less inappropriate, because those are more interactive times when people with questions or comments can say whatever is on their minds. Jesus would not disrespect people who have come to worship his Father.

And remember, in this story, we're talking about a total stranger who starts shouting, not someone whose reputation preceeds him. I'd be more likely to see him as a mentally ill person than my Savior.

 

[The Midge]

Mmmm, this is going off track. The point that I was trying to make was that if Jesus were to visit incognito and taught us would we recognise him or classify him as a good christian?

I can see what you mean about interupting services. The strength of reaction Jesus had to his statement suggest he overstepped the mark that (some of) his audience found unacceptable. Not interrupting the pastor or proceedings is one of our own unwritten rules. Sometimes it would be refreshing for someone to interupt a sermon and say "That a load or rubbish!" Especially when it is. Most AGM's and bible study groups I go to have rather tight programmes that discourage members from departing too far from the script. I can't think of times when church meetings have been allowed unfettered discussion.

I'm still not convinced that Jesus had a deep one to one relationship with every one he encountered. The gospel authors continually refer to crowds, multitides and the like. Certainly there were more intimate parties, but banquets imply occasions when as many people as possible were invited.


I also wrote the op from the view point of an offended person rather than my own POV. In fact I did not define the context too clearly. Honestly, how would you react if someone called you Elders hypocrites? (And they might possibly be right?)

 

[ZiSunka]

Mmmm, this is going off track. The point that I was trying to make was that if Jesus were to visit incognito and taught us would we recognise him or classify him as a good christian?

I can see what you mean about interupting services. The strength of reaction Jesus had to his statement suggest he overstepped the mark that (some of) his audience found unacceptable. Not interrupting the pastor or proceedings is one of our own unwritten rules. Sometimes it would be refreshing for someone to interupt a sermon and say "That a load or rubbish!" Especially when it is. Most AGM's and bible study groups I go to have rather tight programmes that discourage members from departing too far from the script. I can't think of times when church meetings have been allowed unfettered discussion.

That's too bad. almost all the churches I've been to had more open types of studies and prayer meetings. There is a lot of learning through interaction!

I'm still not convinced that Jesus had a deep one to one relationship with every one he encountered. The gospel authors continually refer to crowds, multitides and the like. Certainly there were more intimate parties, but banquets imply occasions when as many people as possible were invited.

He didn't have deep relationships with everyone he came into contact with, but he did have deep relationships with everyone he criticized. He never criticized strangers, he loved 'em up and showed them utmost grace. But the people with whom he ate and fellowshipped, well, he let them have it when they needed it.

I also wrote the op from the view point of an offended person rather than my own POV. In fact I did not define the context too clearly. Honestly, how would you react if someone called you Elders hypocrites? (And they might possibly be right?)

If I agreed with him that they were hypocrites, I might stand up and applaud. But if I thought they were hypocrites and never tried to do anything about it before that, I would be a hypocrite, too.

 

[Blessed-one]

His teachings would be internally consistent and consistent with scripture. However they could well show a particular church's or even your church's teaching or interpretations to be contradictory to scripture. There may be parralles between your Church and the Pharisees who considered their teaching and interpretation of the law to be spot on. Jesus showed it up for what it was. I'm sure the Pharasees were bewildered as well as enraged.

oh.... um, i don't know about other churches, but i think my church (evangelical) doesn't have any (that i know of yet) teachings that resemble the Pharasees'.

I'm still not convinced that Jesus had a deep one to one relationship with every one he encountered. The gospel authors continually refer to crowds, multitides and the like.

if He were to question our relationship with Him, then i suppose yes, since from my observation, all of us have a bit of pride and whatever unpleasant things hidden in us, as in everyone that is, and this goes for not just my church, but every church i guess, if we were to generalise it.

Mmmm, this is going off track.

i suppose lambslove's looking at it from the realistic point of view.

Sometimes it would be refreshing for someone to interupt a sermon and say "That a load or rubbish!" Especially when it is. Most AGM's and bible study groups I go to have rather tight programmes that discourage members from departing too far from the script.

same here, but out of respect and politeness we don't interrupt the sermon, though i don't think our preachers had said any rubblish up there.