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[...] One being existing in three distinct persons isn't necessarily biblical [...]
In the 4th and 5th chapters of Rev. there is quite a description of The Throne Room in Heaven. In this description we see God on His throne, 24 elders on their thrones, 4 living creatures, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ receiving the prophecy of all prophecies. It seems every one of import was there at this most important event.
Everyone that is, except the Holy Spirit. Do those who teach the trinity think his invitation got lost in the Mail or something?
Can you explain how God is considered to be one being existing in three distinct persons?
Can you explain how God is considered to be one being existing in three distinct persons?
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." KJV
God is a Trinity.
The Holy Spirit is Gods Power, not a third individual in the godhead. There are two individuals in the godhead, God the Father and God the Son.
The only thing that God considers a defect is our inner character. That's why he is now working so hard and experiencing so much pain to repair it.Siamese twins are seen as a biological defect of genetic mutation, hence why they are seperated if possible. I don't think we should say that God is analagous to a genetic defect.
Well, one practical application I can think of is having an understanding that makes some kind of sense of God's triune nature. Another practical application is having the ability to explain God's triune nature to others in a way the makes some kind of sense.I think I understand what you're getting at with this OP, and it is an interesting riddle. However, the practical application of any possible solution evades me...
As you pursue your riddle, I encourage you to keep practical application in mind. Remember, Christianity is a practical faith, and if there is no practicality in what you're pursuing, then I think it is important to ask why you're pursuing it at all.
Again: What is the practical necessity to perceive God one way over the other?
Just so you know, the OP is presented as an explanation of the Trinity. It recognizes that there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7.1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." KJV
God is a Trinity.
BreadAlone said:If you think of it as "there are three people sitting in heaven," it'll lose you. . . . . . [snip]
I think not:K, lets look at your analogy.
God the Father is not the HS and God the Son is not the HS. It fails from the start.
Distinct but not separate; they are all one Spirit being, the Holy Spirit being.John 14
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Here are all 3 which Jesus addresses as being distinctive of one another.
They can work independently, however, but not separately because they are one fleshly being. That’s why I used them as an analogy of the Father and the Son who can work independently – the Father in heaven and the Son on earth – but not separately because they are one Spirit being, one Holy Spirit being.Siamese twins are attached with very little opportunity of working independently.
I consider them two distinct persons working as one Holy Spirit.All 3 distinct persons of the Trinity work distinctively
Agreed. They are 3 revelations of God. God reveals Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.but are not 3 modes.
I have no problem with this. To me it is God the Father and God the Son existing as one Holy Spirit being.The Holy Spirit is Gods Power, not a third individual in the godhead.
There are two individuals in the godhead, God the Father and God the Son.
That's probably why this thread was moved to the unorthodox section.Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term 'Trinity' is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity," emphasis added).
Well, these are just metaphorical terms explaining what God does with Himself. Paul used such terms, too, when he said:The Scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person. For example, the Holy Spirit is referred to as a gift. We are told that it can be quenched, that it can be poured out, and that we are baptized with it. It must be stirred up within us, and it also renews us. These are certainly not attributes of a person.
Well, God did promise Himself to us, and His promises are guaranteed, and He is wise, and He does reveal stuff.This Spirit is also called "the holy Spirit of promise ... the guarantee of our inheritance ... the spirit of wisdom and revelation ...".
More metaphorical speech. See above.In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the Holy Spirit is just as consistently represented in a completely different manner. It is described as appearing as a dove and as "tongues of fire". Jesus compared it with "living water".
If the Holy Spirit is of the Father, and the Son was conceived by the Holy Spirit of the Father, then the Holy Spirit can be considered as one Spirit existing as two distinct persons, the Father and the Son.The Gospels record further evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a person. In Matthew 1:20, we read that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit (Moffatt translation). Yet Christ continually prayed to and addressed the Father, not the Holy Spirit, as His father. Never did He represent the Holy Spirit as His Father.
Yes, but He explained that relationship as a Spirit of unity and oneness:Nor did Jesus speak of the Holy Spirit as a third divine person; instead He only spoke of the relationship between Him and God the Father.
Thats a good point.If the godhead were a Trinity, surely the apostle Paul would have understood and emphasized this in his teaching. Yet we find no such concept in his writings. Paul's standard greeting in his letters to churches, as well as individuals to whom he wrote, is, "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." There is no mention of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is always left out of these greetingsan unbelievable oversight if the Holy Spirit were indeed a person coequal with God and Jesus.
Well, if that one Father and that one Son exist as one Holy Spirit, then to mention the Father and the Son is to mention the Holy Spirit, because the Father and Son exist as one Holy Spirit being, just as the Siamese twins exist as one fleshly being.The apostle Paul states clearly that "there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ. He makes no mention of the Holy Spirit as a divine person.
Agreed.The final book of the Bible (and the last to be written) describes "a new heaven and a new earth" (Revelation 21:1) wherein "the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them" (verse 3). Jesus Christ, "the Lamb," is also there (verse 22). The Holy Spirit, however, is conspicuously absentanother inconceivable oversight if this Spirit is the third person of a Trinity.
It also refers to the Holy Spirit as the love of God and the sound mind of God, suggesting personality."Many other scriptures show this connection between the Holy Spirit and God's power. For example, Paul reminded Timothy that "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind" (2 Timothy 1:7). Other scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as the power of God (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8).
Power lies within the body. The power of the Siamese twins lies within their united, fleshly body. If the Holy Spirit is the united Spirit body of the Father and the Son then we would expect the power of God to be found in the Holy Spirit.Luke 4:14 records that Jesus Christ began His ministry "in the power of the Spirit." Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ..." (Acts 1:8)...
The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God's power actively working in His servants (Psalm 51:11; 139:7).
My simple answer to this is:When the Holy Spirit is referred to by personal pronouns such as "he" or "himself" in the Scriptures, this does not prove the Holy Spirit is a person. The translators of the King James Version, influenced by their belief in the Holy Spirit as a third person in the Trinity, generally translated pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit as personal and masculine rather than neuter.
Yes, that is true. Especially since Jesus has ascended to where He was before.
Where was He before?
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God."
Jesus' returning to where He was before speaks to me on this wise: Since He has returned to where He was before, He is again the Word which was with God, and was God. (This is incomprehensible to me, so I take it by faith, and would never try to explain it.) The Word became flesh and was identified as a man who was called Jesus. (If the Word became something else, then it was no longer what it originally was.) So, I do not believe that flesh and blood man who was called Jesus, was God. But I sure do believe that He was what God wanted all of us to be. But none of us 'made the grade'. Only Jesus did that. Since He was as human as we and He did, we could have also. But we didn't. Because we could have, but didn't, this makes us oh so very guilty! That is why we need Jesus, the only perfect One, as our Saviour.
My conception of God is a Trinity too. But instead of three in one, He is two as one. Three in one is four. Two as one is three.God is God. The best that we physical humans in a three dimensional universe can understand his reality is with the concept of Trinity.
Any other conception conceives God as something he is not.
I think not:
2 Cor 3:17:
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
And that's what happens when one takes verses out of context. lol
Distinct but not separate; they are all one Spirit being, the Holy Spirit being.
Lets go a few verses back:
John 14:16-18:
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Notice that when the Holy Spirit comes to us Christ also comes to us. The coming of the Holy Spirit is the coming of Christ. The Holy Spirit in us is the Son in us. The Holy Spirit is the Father and the Son in us.
Not at all. if you use that logic then you could also wrongly say that the Son is the Father based on verse 9. The verse that you quoted is partially what will happen now (indwelling of the HS) and what will happen later (at that day). Look at verses 19 and 20.
19 A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
The apostles will see Him because He lives and so will they but "at that day" they will know that Jesus is in the Father just as the apostles are in Him and Him in the apostles. This string of verses are a great representation of the Trinity. Each is a distinct person but united in substance.
2 Cor 3:17:
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
The Lord Jesus is also the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is of, or from, the Lord Jesus. The personhood of the Holy Spirit is the personhood of the Father and the Son revealed through the Holy Spirit.
They can work independently, however, but not separately because they are one fleshly being. Thats why I used them as an analogy of the Father and the Son who can work independently the Father in heaven and the Son on earth but not separately because they are one Spirit being, one Holy Spirit being.
No, each one is a distinct person since each is referred to as a person. Each has all the basic elements and/or powers of personhood: mind, will, and feeling.
1. The Father is a person. In addition of being referred to as a person ("He"), 3 elements of personhood are attributed to the Father. He has the power of intellect to know (Matt. 6:32). He has the emotional faculty to feel (Gen. 6:6). And He has the power of will to choose (Matt. 6:9-10). In addition, He has personal traits, such as the ability to communicate (Matt. 11:25) and teach (John 7:16-17).
2. The Son is a person. In addition of being referred to as a person ("He"), the Son can communicate and teach (John 7:17) as only persons can do. He too has intellect (John 2:25). He has feeling (John 11:35) and will (John 6:38). The personal pronoun "he" is used consistently to refer to Him.
3. The Holy Spirit is a person. In addition of being referred to as a person ("He", 'His"), all of the elements of personhood are attributed to the HS in scripture. He has a mind (John 14:26). He has will (1 Cor. 12:11). He has feeling (Eph. 4:30). The activities of a person are also attributed to the HS, He seaches, knows, speaks, testifies, reveals, convinces, commands, strives, moves, helps, guides, creates, recreates, sanctifies, inspires, intercedes, orders the affairs of the church, and performs miracles. (See Gen.6:3, Luke 12:12, John 3:8, 16:7-8, Acts 8:29, Romans 8:26, 1 Cor. 2:11, Eph. 4:30, 2 Peter 1:21, etc. ).
2ducklow said:Jesus is the bread of life, it was the bread of life that desended from heaven, and the bread of life that we are the flesh of and drink the blood of, NOT the man Christ Jesus. the man christ Jesus did not descend from heaven, he was begotten by god and conceived by mary. Clearly Jesus is not a door, or a loaf of bread, or a shepard, and other figures of speech. Jesus is the bread of life that came down from heaven because the Father of Jesus begat him, and because the Father spoke through Jesus the words (bread of life) that we are to believe in to have eternal life.
to interpret john 6.62 to mean that Jesus existed in heaven before he was born requires that you ignore john chapter 6. clearly we are not to eat the flesh of Jesus because it is fiugrative, and clearly Jesus is only figuratively the bread of life that came down from heaven, and just as clearly Jesus is the bread of life because he spoke god's words which bring life, not eating Jesus flesh. Jesus went back to where he as the bread of life (figuratively ) came from, not where he (the man Jesus ) came from.
Note; what bread did the OT people eat that came down from heaven? the word of god, vs. 58. The OT scriptures do not save, the OT bread does not save, it is NT scriptures that save, it is the NT bread that saves. OT saints had bread that came down from heaven and t hey ate it but they died, those who eat the NT bread that came down from heaven will live forever.
we are to eat the flesh and drink the b lood of the bread of Life who is Jesus. Just like Jesus said he is the light of the world, well really he isn't. it is god who is the light of the world Jesus is really the lamp of god that the light of god shines through. Jesus isn't really the bread of life, he is the one through whom god spoke the words of life that came down from heaven, that is the bread of life that Jesus is in a figurattive sense. We are not to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus.
Well, one practical application I can think of is having an understanding that makes some kind of sense of God's triune nature. Another practical application is having the ability to explain God's triune nature to others in a way the makes some kind of sense.
1 Peter 3:15:
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
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